Assist Trophies General Discussion

Vulture you were supposed to do your own research on FE, lol

The current FE assist roster seems ok, but is kinda bare. Tiki and Tharja are certainly not necessary compared to some of the other options. I thought Roy's Pegasus idea was fantastic, just that it should involve the Whitewings rather than the pegasi from Elibe. Black Knight was also a great idea, and if anything those two should take precedence over Tiki and Tharja. I also gave a list of ideas for the "evil wizard" archetype, which should definitely be repped somehow. It's a matter of subjectivity which one is the best rep, which is why there's a list for you to look up and choose from yourself, with all the pros and cons of each.

If you want I can give you the full pros and cons of all the possible assist trophy ideas, but that would be a very long post.

Dry wrote:

Vulture you were supposed to do your own research on FE, lol

The current FE assist roster seems ok, but is kinda bare. Tiki and Tharja are certainly not necessary compared to some of the other options. I thought Roy's Pegasus idea was fantastic, just that it should involve the Whitewings rather than the pegasi from Elibe. Black Knight was also a great idea, and if anything those two should take precedence over Tiki and Tharja. I also gave a list of ideas for the "evil wizard" archetype, which should definitely be repped somehow. It's a matter of subjectivity which one is the best rep, which is why there's a list for you to look up and choose from yourself, with all the pros and cons of each.

If you want I can give you the full pros and cons of all the possible assist trophy ideas, but that would be a very long post.

I could go change it, and if you don't feel like doing a long list, try to talk about the ones that you want to mention the most.

Dry wrote:

Vulture you were supposed to do your own research on FE, lol

The current FE assist roster seems ok, but is kinda bare. Tiki and Tharja are certainly not necessary compared to some of the other options. I thought Roy's Pegasus idea was fantastic, just that it should involve the Whitewings rather than the pegasi from Elibe. Black Knight was also a great idea, and if anything those two should take precedence over Tiki and Tharja. I also gave a list of ideas for the "evil wizard" archetype, which should definitely be repped somehow. It's a matter of subjectivity which one is the best rep, which is why there's a list for you to look up and choose from yourself, with all the pros and cons of each.

If you want I can give you the full pros and cons of all the possible assist trophy ideas, but that would be a very long post.

I agree mostly with this, however I think Tiki should stay. She represents both dragons (which appear quite a lot throughout the series) and transformations (such as Laguz, Manaketes, etc), as well as appearing within multiple games. The evil wizard archetype can definitely replace Tharja, though (Perhaps Validar so we still have Awakening representation?).

Well, Anna, Chrom, Robin and Lucina all rep Awakening well. Not all of the ones I just mentioned are actually on the roster, but this is as far as I can go without leaking anything.

Tiki could stay, which would bring the number of assist trophies up to five. If that's not a problem, then Tiki can stay.

What special stuff can Validar do? If he doesn't have any abilities that translate really well to assist trophy status, I'd say Gharnef is the better rep. Here's my suggestion of evil wizard archetypes that could be repped, from an earlier post:

- Alvis reps Jugdral very well, and can use Falaflame. A bit boring though.
- Veld can turn people into stone, but he's not too iconic, appearing only in FE5.
- Izuka can summon laguz, which would be incredibly unique and a great way to rep the laguz, but he's only a minor antagonist, and most of his stuff happens offscreen.
- Lekain and Hezul could appear together like in FE10, and "silence" all the characters, i.e. preventing them from doing certain things (specials, maybe?) Lekain also has Rexaura, but like Alvis that's pretty generic.

The other problem is that the Black Knight and Hector are a bit too similar. I'm thinking either Hector could be replaced with another lord, or the Black Knight could be replaced with another non-evil enemy.

So @Vulture, these are the confirmed ones:
- Palla, Catria and Est (the Whitewings, Roy detailed how they would act in an earlier post)
- Tiki

Both of those rep Archanea, which deserves the most reps, and the Whitewings also rep FE2, which is nice. I think the other three should rep the three other big continents, namely Jugdral, Elibe and Tellius. Also, those three should be a lord, a "good" enemy, and an evil wizard.

So the question is which one comes from which. Here's a list of what I think are the best candidates for assist trophies from each category:

Lords
- Sigurd (Jugdral)
Hugely popular character, but is unable to be playable due to riding a horse. He rivals Hector in popularity, and like Hector he can just turn up with Tyrfing and kick ass for a while. I could see him as a replacement to Hector.
- Leaf (Jugdral)
Appears as a semi-major character in FE4 and the main lord in FE5. As a Master Knight in FE4, he can use pretty much weapon, as well as magic and staves, which makes him a lot more versatile than the other lords.
- Hector (Elibe)
I think Roy already gave a ton of reasons for him. If the Black Knight is replaced, Hector would be my choice for a lord rep.
- Micaiah (Tellius)
She's a mage and a staff user, which sets her apart from pretty much every other lord. She's also probably the least popular lord ever, though, so...

Good villains
- Eltshan (Jugdral)
I think Eltshan was given a high status in Awakening, as like the strongest DLC boss, or something. He's basically a less iconic version of Sigurd, but that might have been changed by Awakening, I'm not sure.
- The Black Fang (Elibe)
It's kinda difficult to choose one individual Black Fang member for this. I suppose Lloyd could work.
- The Black Knight (Tellius)
Probably the best candidate for this. It does mean, however, that Hector will have to go.

Evil wizards I've basically already gone through. What do you think, Roy?

Hm... your opinion seems to be of wanting the Black Knight and Sigurd, but then we're lacking a rep for Elibe (which would end up being Nergal?). That's not a bad way to divide things up, but there's also the other option of Hector, Eltshan, and Lekain/Hezul. Hm...


Is there a way we can make either the Black Knight or Hector more interesting? I think both would be great if we can differentiate them somehow, and then throw in Alvis (though he is a bit boring) to fill in Jugdral.

I can't think of anything to differentiate the two. They're just too similar.

I forgot about Nergal, though. Ereshkigal is boring, but instead maybe he could summon dragons?

I also forgot about the other Tellius wizard, Lehran. He has a ton of abilities, like warping, huge AOE attacks, summoning elemental spirits, and sealing stuff tightly shut. He could be a possibility alongside the other Tellius options.

That would make the options:
- Pegasi, Tiki, Black Knight, Sigurd, Nergal
- Pegasi, Tiki, Eltshan, Hector, (Tellius wizard)

I think there's a third option. What if, rather than Tiki, we have Kurthnaga to rep Tellius, the laguz, the dragons AND Naga's incarnate, and then have Camus as the Black Knight's replacement?

That would make:
- Pegasi, Kurthnaga, Hector, Camus, (Tellius wizard)

Either Kurthnaga or Deghinsea would work. Deghinsea doesn't have the Naga name connection, but he's bigger, more badass and has an additional AOE attack.

The Tellius wizards are Izuka, Lekain, Hezul and Lehran
- Izuka is the least iconic, but the most interesting. He reps the laguz, although Kurthnaga would make up for that to some extent.
- Lekain and Hezul are the main antagonists, and have a nice unique silencing gimmick.
- Lehran is the actual guy pulling all the strings, and he has a ton of abilities as well.

All of those options seem decent... I think I'm partial to the first option. That is, Pegasi, Tiki, Black Knight, Sigurd, and Nergal. I do like Lehran though...

Nergal summoning dragons seems like it would conflict with Tiki's uniqueness. What if we had Limstella instead? She could freeze anyone who gets close, while using Bolting on anyone far away. Then again, she loses the dark magic aspect...


Actually, wait. What makes Eltshan unique? He's like Sigurd, which means he's probably too similar to Hector. Perhaps there's a fourth option?

- Pegasi, Tiki, Lehran, Sigurd, Jaffar

Maybe it's just me, but Elibe + 'good' villain makes me think of Jaffar. He could work similarly to Lyn in Brawl/SSB4. Unfortunately, this means losing both Black Knight and Hector. However, the stage lineup could potentially save the Black Knight.

If we assign the characters to standard FE classes, Hector and the Black Knight would be Generals, and Eltshan and Sigurd (and Camus) would be Paladins. So Eltshan is very different from Hector, and that's why those two can be together. In fact, now that I'm thinking about it that way, the three pairs I mentioned (Hector/Eltshan, BK/Sigurd, Hector/Camus) are just General/Paladin pairs.

The fourth option seems good as well, although I honestly think there should be at least one character in heavy armour. Hector and the Black Knight were my favourites of your original suggestions, not counting the pegasi.

So yeah @Vulture, this is where we are so far. We're probably having one of the following four rosters:
1) Whitewings, Tiki, Sigurd, Nergal, The Black Knight
2) Whitewings, Tiki, Eltshan, Hector, Lehran
3) Whitewings, Camus, Alvis, Hector, Kurthnaga
4) Whitewings, Tiki, Sigurd, Jaffar, Lehran

I'm assuming Lehran is Roy's choice of Tellius wizard. I'm fine with any of the three, so Lehran it is.

Hm, true. It would be best to have someone in heavy armor... The first 2 options are the best ones, but Nergal and Eltshan aren't so great... Eh... My vote goes to (1).

Part of my reasoning is that Jugdral isn't represented anywhere else in the game. If we're going to have something from it, it should definitely be the lord. At least Elibe has Roy, Tellius has Ike, etc.



EDIT: I really like FE6/7, but do we have to have a rep from it? Lehran is so much better than Nergal. Even Lyon would probably be a better option (We don't have a rep for Magvel either, so maybe?).

For Gyromite: Professor Hector - He appears on the screen and sleepwalks and with him bundles of dynamite spreaded all over the stage. The players must try to catch ( disarm ) all the bundles of dynamite to save themselves from a explosion only the player who used the assist throphy is invulnerable. ( This is only a suggestion )
the other assist trophy for Gyromite could be: Professor Hector and Professor Vector - Both appears after the assist trophy has been used and one professor is on the left sied of the stage and the other one is on the right side of the stage. Also red and blue gates like the one from the original game appears spreaded all over the stage and the professors uses remote controlls which closes and lowers the gates. The gates then will be like obsticles to the players.

Here is also one for Ice Climbers: Condor - He appears on top of the stage, flys around and sometimes he is an assist trophy which attacks players and sometimes he will have an eggplant ( in the design from ice climbers ) in his claws and players can jump up and try to catch the eggplant which will recover 30 %.

FE6/7 should probably have a rep. It's too big a series, and I think having both Lehran and BK would be a bit too much Tellius.

What are your thoughts on the second option? Can you explain why you don't like the Eltshan idea, or is it more a gut feeling?

Dry wrote:

What are your thoughts on the second option? Can you explain why you don't like the Eltshan idea, or is it more a gut feeling?

Tbh I haven't played FE4, so I don't really know much about it... but it seems really strange to include a side character from the game over the main one when it is the only representative of the game.

Doing more research, he seems like the reverse of other 'good' villains. He was originally on your side, but then switched... but during that time, he was never playable. Even in Awakening, he was the only DLC character to not receive new art (and one of only 3 characters who did not have a spotpass version). The main redeeming factor is that he gets a special weapon in Mystletainn. To me, he doesn't seem much better than someone like Jaffar.


The option is good, it's just Eltshan that ruins it for me... like Nergal ruins the first one for me.

Changed he Assist trophies for Fire Emblem, still trying to do some research about the other characters.

Just that I was distracted with a lot of things

Eh, you're right that Eltshan isn't a major character. It's just that I heard he was one of the major bosses of Awakening's DLC, so I assumed that would have bumped up his status somewhat. Apparently not.

Unfortunately, Jaffar isn't that big a character either. All of his relevance comes from Nino, and even Nino probably isn't major enough.

I think the problem is that I've been trying to force in a "good" villain, when maybe that's not so necessary after all. The thing is that the two I had in mind at first, Camus and the Black Knight, are hugely iconic characters who make great assist trophy candidates. But the same can't be said of their equivalents, like Eltshan, Selena, etc. So maybe we should just skip out on the "good" villain part.

So that makes option 2) better, if we replace Eltshan with another Jugdral rep. That gives us Whitewings, Tiki, Hector and Lehran.

Sigurd is a possibility, and even though he's also a lord he's pretty different from Hector in how he fights. Crusade currently has pretty much no representation from people on horseback, so that would be nice.

Other options:
- Alvis. An incredibly well-written villain who spans both halves of FE4.
- Lewyn. Major character in both halves, but especially the second one, and in a way he's the "good" version of Alvis. Alvis is a tragic villain who tries to be good, and Lewyn is a tragic hero whose personality gets in the way.
- Veld. Villain of FE5. Can turn people into stone, which is really unique and cool.
- Celice/Leaf. Heroes of FE4 Part 2 and FE5, respectively. They're not as popular as Sigurd, and Celice doesn't offer anything more. Leaf has a lot of options.
- Fin. By far the most recurring character of Jugdral, appearing playable in the entirety of FE4 and FE5. Outside of his onscreen time, though, he doesn't have much going for him.

He's recruitable in the Infinite Regalia DLC chapter, the whole purpose of which is to get rare weapons (there are similar chapters used solely for money and experience). The chapter can be completed in 1 turn with no strategy involved - the only thing to really do is to rush to the chests in the back. There's not much story involved, either.


If we remove the 'good villain' requirement, the choice is basically between Sigurd and Alvis (Veld does seem unique and Leaf is another popular lord, but they're probably not as good as the 2 aforementioned). I'd go with Sigurd due to sheer popularity and horseback, but Alvis isn't a bad choice.


Also again, whatever the Tellius stage ends up being can probably include the Black Knight so we won't really miss him too much. He's really the only major loss if we go this route.

I'd go with Sigurd, too. We're done, Vulture!

Here's our FE assist trophy wishlist:

- Whitewings. One of the three sisters (probably Palla, as the leader) appears and rushes forward. If she connects, Catria and Est turn up and perform a Triangle Attack, doing a ton of damage.

- Tiki. She trips comically onto the field, then takes out her stone and turns into a huge Divine Dragon, and breathes mist everywhere (I think it's mist? Can't quite remember). The tripping idea seems random, but I think it's nice to reference her child-like nature outside of dragon form. Unless we're going with Awakening Tiki, which I'm not familiar with

- Sigurd. He appears and his horse rears up epically. Then the screen flashes. He leaps forward on the horse, and if he's still on a platform he charges forward. Anyone hit during the leap or charge takes a ton of knockback. Screen flashing is what happens with holy weapons. The leap is Sigurd's attack animation. Unfortunately there's not much more interesting stuff he can do.

- Hector. He unleashes an earthquake by slamming Armads on the ground, then twirls it around his head, making a whirlwind, then slams it down, dealing a OHKO.

- Lehran. He appears and summons a large group of Fire, Wind and Thunder Spirits, which damage characters (and maybe differently, say Fire does more damage, Wind does more knockback, Thunder does more hitstun). EITHER then he warps to the centre and unleashes Creiddylad, dealing a ton of damage with a pool of light, OR then he warps to the summoner and uses the Ashera Staff, completely healing them. Maybe both, but that would probably be overkill.

Added, which means I'm done with Fire Emblem reps

Next update, I'm going to add my own suggestions.

Ristar
Kaiser Greedy: it will fly upward and will proceed to shoot a powerful Beam similar to deoxys

Pacman
Classic Ms Pacman: will attack a random opponent similar to Pacman Smash Final

Added Capcom, Konami, and Sega reps to "Other"

Involving Capcom, I founded the character that suits the role as an Assist Trophy better than Ammy.

Looking over the list some more, I have a few comments:

- Is Bowyer really the best representative of Mario RPG? Sure he represents Geno himself, but I don't know if that's the best idea. The effect is certainly unique, but I feel as though Mallow (using perhaps HP Rain?) would be a better rep.

- Speaking of Mario, perhaps we should have a Paper Mario rep in there. There's no reason we can't have plenty of Mario reps, considering the number of playable reps in both Crusade and Smash 4. I'm partial to Rawk Hawk just because of who he is, but he wouldn't really do anything unique (he'd be almost identical to the Flying Men in Magicant... huh. Is that the inspiration?).

- It seems weird to summon trainers for Pokemon... and even if so, you chose some random ones that don't have that much importance. The most obvious Pokemon AT would be a random trainer that throws a pokeball, but perhaps there is a better option...

- Out of all of the monkeys, we end up with Stanley over all of them (except Chunky). He was in one NES/arcade game that no one cares about. Unique, sure, but couldn't we have someone like Funky riding his plane accross the stage, Cranky being a worthless old guy yelling at the fighters (speaking of which, where's Animal Crossing?), etc.

- James McCloud isn't really important to Star Fox. He shows up at the end of 64, but that's it. Why is he using Assault weaponry? Why is he even here over Slippy, Peppy, ROB 64, even Leon and Pigma (assuming Wolf is playable).

- Mega Man has 2 random bosses. Why? There are much more important characters. You can use the argument of 'playable is better' for Zero, Bass, Tron Bonne, etc... but what about Roll? Protoman? Auto? Tango? Beat? And that's just in the classic series. Expanding out, we can find more choices such as Axl and Servbot. Seriously, even if we were going with random bosses, those 2 would be near the bottom of the list. Elec Man and Chill Penguin are much more recognizable and just as unique.

- I can't really complain about Sonic since the 'playable' argument can work for almost any Sonic character... Bah.

- Pac-Man just has a slingshot? At least have the Ghosts from Smash 4 or something... that's less interesting than the Color TV 15.


- A few other playable series are unrepresented at the moment. Ignoring DHD, Mach Rider, ROB, and Ice Climbers, we still have at least Sin & Punishment and Klonoa. My reccomendations:

Isa (S&P) - Works similarly to Saki in Brawl/4, but he uses a cannon over a gunblade. He'll shoot the cannon at far away foes and smash it into anyone who gets close.

Balue (Klonoa) - He jumps into the air and unleashes a bunch of tornadoes down onto the battlefield.

I'm not looking for "Importance", but rather "Uniqueness". I wanted to give some variety, wether if it's how they attack opponents, how and what they effect the opponents, and how they help their summoner. I just feel like these characters have those varieties rather than some of the "Important" characters.

Besides:
-In Brawl, the only Kirby Assist Trophy was Knuckle Joe. Which to be honest, is not an important compared to any Kirby character like Marx or even Kracko.
-In 3DS/WiiU, the new Earthbound Assist Trophy was Starman. Which to be fair is one of the most well-known enemies in the game, but he was not important than the likes of Paula, Poo, Giygas,Porky, or any member from Mother 1 or Mother 3
-Let's kick up a notch with Crusade's roster. Of all the Mario Characters, they chose Petey Piranha over the likes of Paper Mario and Rosalina.

Though, I will agree on the Slingshot, I will replace it later.

Also adding your suggestions later.

Uniqueness, sure. But we can get both that and relevency. We took up a page of discussion perfecting the Fire Emblem ATs to make sure we had both. Why can't we do the same for any other series?

I agree with Kirby, but I can understand Sakurai choosing his favorite for his own series (which explains some Crusade roster choices such as Snivy). For Mother, Jeff is present and Starman represents the most important enemy (aside from Giygas but it's kind of hard to do him justice). Starman was what kicked off Ness' adventure after meeting Buzz Buzz, after all.
For Crusade, I remember back in the day Rosalina was supposed to be on the roster. Petey was added probably due to availability of sprites (mostly taken from Super Princess Peach). Not sure what happened to Rosalina - and maybe they actually are playable and we just don't know yet.

I understand what you are talking about, and what you said does make sense. I might change it if people agree with you, but for know, I'm focusing more on uniqueness. (But that Slingshot is going to change, and maybe use its idea for Sniper Wolf or The End)

Petey Piranha not a good roster choice for you, huh? I personally don't see how Paper Mario and Rosalina are so much better. Petey doesn't rep a Mario subseries like they do, but he's just been in so many games, occasionally playable, partially reps an entire species, and has a very unique playstyle. Paper Mario and Rosalina are very good roster choices, but Petey has even more going for him.

I agree that it's a bit weird to have Bowyer when he's no better known than Mack or Yarodovich [size=9]or whatever his name is[/], but Bowyer's definitely got an incredibly unique effect, certainly unique enough to warrant an assist trophy slot. It's similar to what Lekain+Hezul would have had if they had made it for FE, but they didn't. So what I'm questioning now is, if there are possibly "silencing" characters from other series that make better assist trophies than Bowyer?

Are Pokemon assist trophies necessary, like, at all? I think the three at the moment are great, given that we're looking for characters that don't need their Pokemon to be interesting, but I still can't help but see them all as a little shoehorned. Pokemon honestly doesn't need assist trophies, when they have an entire subsection of assists to themselves.

I agree with Roy on James McCloud. You don't even need to change the effect, just change the character.

If Slingshot is turned into a Metal Gear villain, it should probably be The End. So Psycho Mantis reps Snake's storyline, and The End reps Big Boss' storyline.

Petey is basically the most memorable character from the Gamecube era of Mario Games, he was in a lot of them. He was the first real boss of Super Mario Sunshine, and was very iconic. In my opinion, he's the Gamecube Mario Rep. Rosalina would be the Wii Mario Rep. Mario, Luigi, Peach, Toad, and Bowser represent the whole series.

As for Paper Mario, well, not sure. I do feel like he'd be a more wanted rep, but at the same time I much prefer Petey.

Dry wrote:

I agree with Roy on James McCloud. You don't even need to change the effect, just change the character.

This is the definite point here. If you want to keep the unique effect, just change who is doing the effect. This can apply to anyone.

(Though, James McCloud isn't really that unique, is he? He's just using a rocket launcher...)

For Gyromite: Professor Hector - He appears on the screen and sleepwalks and with him bundles of dynamite spreaded all over the stage. The players must try to catch ( disarm ) all the bundles of dynamite to save themselves from a explosion only the player who used the assist throphy is invulnerable. ( This is only a suggestion )
the other assist trophy for Gyromite could be: Professor Hector and Professor Vector - Both appears after the assist trophy has been used and one professor is on the left sied of the stage and the other one is on the right side of the stage. Also red and blue gates like the one from the original game appears spreaded all over the stage and the professors uses remote controlls which closes and lowers the gates. The gates then will be like obsticles to the players.

Here is also one for Ice Climbers: Condor - He appears on top of the stage, flys around and sometimes he is an assist trophy which attacks players and sometimes he will have an eggplant ( in the design from ice climbers ) in his claws and players can jump up and try to catch the eggplant which will recover 30 %.

Changed some from the list.

Also:
Mega Man- When replacing Burst Man, should I either chose Air Man From Mega Man 2, or Blade Man from Mega Man 10?

Donkey Kong- When adding Cranky Kong, would the Scrooge McDuck pogo stick move from Tropical Freeze work?

VultureDuck wrote:

Also:
Mega Man- When replacing Burst Man, should I either chose Air Man From Mega Man 2, or Blade Man from Mega Man 10?

Donkey Kong- When adding Cranky Kong, would the Scrooge McDuck pogo stick move from Tropical Freeze work?

I wouldn't choose either of those, but Air Man is a much better choice than Blade Man... though he's not really unique now with other ATs such as Balue.

I thought Shovel Knight was going to do the pogo move?

Eh, I'm gonna quickly say a quick thought that came to my mind.

In my opinion, I don't think Assist Trophies should be discussed, or added until a final roster is made. Just my opinion, I guess discussion isn't as bad, but addition would cancel out a characters chance of being playable. Characters like Shovel Knight, Fawful, and Cranky Kong are viable for being playable. Just my opinion though, I think that some major characters should be considered simply as DLC if they would work perfect as characters.

JUST MY OPINION. I think some of the characters listed would work really well as assist's, but I think some would work as characters and, I'd prefer that way. Even though it'd be a lot of work.