Just something I noticed: you can "tech" Wright's Down Aerial's falling down animation. As he hits the ground, press shield, and it will be the same as if something had sent Wright flying.
Dry
4607
Subject: Re: Phoenix Wright Discussion Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:13 am
It would be a bit mean if you had absolutely no options to avoid being a sitting duck after dair.
Falcon8r
789
Subject: Re: Phoenix Wright Discussion Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:17 am
Dry wrote:
It would be a bit mean if you had absolutely no options to avoid being a sitting duck after dair.
I think it's kinda cool actually. Just wanted to put this out there since it's not intuitive.
desu Level 6 CPU
653 fanyoshixD
Subject: Re: Phoenix Wright Discussion Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:06 am
It seems that Phoenix's Down Special can't throw the projectile that he absorbed.
I just realized how strong Wright's punish game can be, especially on Jigglypuff's Rest cooldown.
Wright is typically a defensive character given his specials (reflect, freeze, absorb) and large hitboxes on certain moves (able to create walls between jab, fsmash, f tilt, etc). I'm curious what kind of rest punish you've cooked up.
HypeConduit wrote:
Did Wright's dair have any influence from PSASBR Heihachi's aerial down triangle? Me and a friend of mine are somewhat curious.
Not that I know of, but it could be. The moveset was mostly based off of UMvC3, afaik.
I just realized how strong Wright's punish game can be, especially on Jigglypuff's Rest cooldown.
Wright is typically a defensive character given his specials (reflect, freeze, absorb) and large hitboxes on certain moves (able to create walls between jab, fsmash, f tilt, etc). I'm curious what kind of rest punish you've cooked up.
It's fairly simple actually. You constantly use the Neutral Special on Jiggs, then use the Side Special as a finisher. "Objection" does not cause flinching, and it stacks the damage on "Take That", causing to rack up damage with the former, and send Jiggs flying with the latter.
I really think Phoenix's grabs should power up his side special. I know some people think it already does but just to clear it up IT DOESN'T.
His neutral special already powers up his side special, so that isn't really necessary.
As well as his up special, which has a highly mobile aerial variant.
TaXMaN Level 6 CPU
689
Subject: Re: Phoenix Wright Discussion Thu May 21, 2015 10:51 am
HypeConduit wrote:
C_Mill24 wrote:
TaXMaN wrote:
I really think Phoenix's grabs should power up his side special. I know some people think it already does but just to clear it up IT DOESN'T.
His neutral special already powers up his side special, so that isn't really necessary.
As well as his up special, which has a highly mobile aerial variant.
I suppose he doesn't REALLY need it. I guess I just miss 0.9 test Phoenix. Always loved using the "chain of justice" on opponents (ala HOLD IT! X3 and TAKE THAT! as a finisher) but that was way OP since you could simply grab opponents if they shielded against the chain.
Perfect Hell
8837
Subject: Re: Phoenix Wright Discussion Sat May 23, 2015 8:29 am
Actually, all of his throws power up side special. Possibly not in the public version though, that balancing change might have happened after 0.9.
The current Phoenix Wright moveset is terrible! His 'gimmick' relies on hitting opponents and most of his moveset is worthless. Time to make a turnabout!
Playstyle: Phoenix is a master of making mountains out of small mistakes. He patiently waits, studying the witness and going over his statements. Find a weak point, and attack! His attacks are fairly laggy, but they get the job done when they connect. His main mechanic involves finding evidence - he can hold a surprisingly large number of evidence pieces. It's important to keep this up - without evidence, Phoenix doesn't have the ammunition to deal with his opponent.
A: File Phoenix pulls out a file, and papers fly out forward. It has quite a bit of range due to the papers. More papers fly out if he has more evidence. The A button can be mashed to have Phoenix tap the file, causing more papers to fly out.
Dash Attack: Break In Phoenix starts up a shoulder bash, doing some decent knockback. However, he ends up losing control and falls forward, slamming face first into the ground. It has a lot of endlag, but comes out relatively quickly compared to his other moves.
Forward Tilt: Sneeze Phoenix leans back and sneezes! Surprisingly strong and works well for a KO move.
Up Tilt: Forensic Science Phoenix sprays some luminol up in the air. It doesn't do any knockback, but has a momentary stun allowing him to get away or grab some evidence.
Down Tilt: Metal Detector Phoenix sweeps a metal dector near the ground in front of him, knocking away enemies a short distance. If Phoenix looks for evidence within a few seconds after, the time it takes to find a piece will be halved.
Forward Smash: Present Phoenix thrusts a piece of evidence forward. If he has no evidence, he instead presents his attorney badge, however it doesn't do much.
Up Smash: Mr. Hat Phoenix pulls his coat back a bit, and a contraption appears out of it, causing a wooden puppet to sprout next to him from the ground up, knocking enemies skyward. It tips its hat, and then dissapears back into Phoenix's coat. I guess Trucy must have let him borrow it.
Down Smash: Desk Slam A courtroom desk apears in front of Phoenix, and he slams down on it, knocking away nearby opponents. This attack becomes much stronger with more evidence held.
Neutral Air: Flail Phoenix waves his arms and legs around, attempting to knock away nearby opponents. Can't really fault him for trying, and it does come out fast.
Forward Air: Evidence Swing Phoenix takes out a piece of evidence and swings it in front of him. If he has no evidence, he kind of just... slaps?
Up Air: Evidence Overhead Similar to his forward air, Phoenix takes out a piece of evidence and swings it above his head. If he has no evidence, he again kind of slaps the air above him.
Back Air: Bug Sweeper Phoenix takes out a bug sweeper and waves it behind him, hoping to catch an unlucky foe. It doesn't have a good amount of knockback scaling, but it can be very damaging.
Down Air: Evidence Shove Phoenix takes out a piece of evidence and shoves it below him. He almost loses control of it, but manages to grab it and put it away after, causing quite a bit of endlag. If he has no evidence, he instead pushes his hands downward and the endlag is much less.
Grab: Magatama Phoenix puts forth the Magatama! The opponent is locked in chains!
Pummel: Psyche Lock A psyche lock appears on the opponent and breaks. The damage increases significantly with evidence.
Throws: Generic throws, he points his Magatama in a certain direction and the opponent flies in that direction.
Neutral Special: Press Phoenix points his finger out, and yells out HOLD IT! If an opponent is within range of the attack, they are pushed back a good distance. The lag of the animation has super armor - the push doubles if Phoenix is attacked during the startup. This is used to give Phoenix some space (and some more information). If Phoenix has 5 or more pieces of evidence, he will instead shout OBJECTION! Instead of getting pushed back, they get stunned! Phoenix can now follow up with another attack. Pile on the pressure! The culprit is cornered!
Side Special: Fey Magic Maya appears from behind Phoenix and steps forward, putting up a magical purple barrier. It blocks all projectiles, and she stays in this position for some time, allowing Phoenix to reposition or have some space to find evidence. She leaves after being hit with something physical, though. Occasionally, Pearl will replace Maya.
Up Special: Steel Samurai Balloon Phoenix takes out an air tank and attempts to blow up an inflatable Steel Samurai. It starts and holds him hovering in place a bit, before the air tank ruptures, causing Phoenix to go flying up into the air before he lets go. The air tank continues to fly up, smashing into anyone unfortunate enough to be in the way.
Down Special: Evidence If the button is held down, Phoenix leans down, and searches for some evidence of the opponent being involved in the case. If an item is nearby, he will take it and it is added to his 'evidence', which he can take out later. If there is no item nearby, after a second, he will find something random (from one of his cases) and add it to his bag. He can hold up to 10 of these, and it is noted by his damage meter. If the button is tapped, Phoenix takes out the first evidence on his list and holds it. If it is an item, it acts like a normal item. If it is a random piece of evidence, he can throw it like a generic projectile. Using this again will switch which evidence he currently has out. Evidence is used in some of his attacks (forward smash, forward air, up air, down air), and the properties of those attacks change with what evidence is being currently used. He rotates though it, so it is a good idea to pay attention which piece is next in line to use. Some evidence is rather useless for attacking, so they are good for taking out as a projectile.
Some evidence examples: Cellphone - Not good for much of anything, might as well throw it at your opponent. Grape Juice Bottle - Moderately useful for hitting your opponent with. Bust - Really heavy, causing attacks to be a lot slower but stronger. If thrown, doesn't go very far and causes a powerful meteor smash. Phony Phanty - It looks like a stuffed animal, but it's actually a bomb! Hitting someone with it causes it to explode! Best to throw this one.
Final Smash: Turnabout
It's time to pay for your crimes! TAKE THAT! If Phoenix connects with a close opponent, a cutscene plays with Phoenix presenting evidence, the opponent gasping, ending with a verdict. GUILTY! And the opponent is sent flying.
Taunt: Puts his hand behind his head, and laughs.
Taunt 2: Takes out a small piano and attempts to play it (does not go well).
Taunt 3: An 8-bit Steel Samurai theme starts to play. Phoenix takes out his cellphone and silences it.
Last edited by Roy on Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:25 pm; edited 8 times in total
I like the Neutral and Down Specials, though I'm not 100% sure if I like the new side and up specials.
I do not like summoning characters in movesets. And I'm not sure if I really understand most of the references in the normals, but it seems very odd that he keeps pulling out random things and dropping them/holding them.
Just because something can be referenced, doesn't mean it needs to be. If you wanted to, you could probably find a bunch of random things for every single attack (which it seems you did) and put it as a move, but you need to decide whether it actually makes sense at the end of the day in the moveset/playstyle. I cannot picture Phoenix swinging a briefcase at people while he's flying through the air. I honestly would like to see evidence be utilized more. Right now it just gives a passive buff to certain things, and can be pulled out via a down special as a projectile. What if, instead of random books, etc being pulled out for those moves, he uses the evidence he has? Based on the evidence, it could very well be a powerful meteor smash or hit, but being able to utilize it effectively would be needed. I'd also perhaps like a small chance of "useless evidence" added to the down special. It'd give more of a reason to pull it out and throw it away as a projectile imo.
I like the Neutral and Down Specials, though I'm not 100% sure if I like the new side and up specials.
I do not like summoning characters in movesets. And I'm not sure if I really understand most of the references in the normals, but it seems very odd that he keeps pulling out random things and dropping them/holding them.
Just because something can be referenced, doesn't mean it needs to be. If you wanted to, you could probably find a bunch of random things for every single attack (which it seems you did) and put it as a move, but you need to decide whether it actually makes sense at the end of the day in the moveset/playstyle. I cannot picture Phoenix swinging a briefcase at people while he's flying through the air. I honestly would like to see evidence be utilized more. Right now it just gives a passive buff to certain things, and can be pulled out via a down special as a projectile. What if, instead of random books, etc being pulled out for those moves, he uses the evidence he has? Based on the evidence, it could very well be a powerful meteor smash or hit, but being able to utilize it effectively would be needed. I'd also perhaps like a small chance of "useless evidence" added to the down special. It'd give more of a reason to pull it out and throw it away as a projectile imo.
Maya had to fit in somewhere, she's almost always with Phoenix in the original trilogy. I don't like summoning either, but it's the only way to fit in Maya. His up special is somewhat of a joke... but it was funny enough to include. (Can't really think of anything else as an Up Special, unless a rope comes down and he 'flies'?)
As far as normals... only a few of them are really specific references. I was trying to avoid using evidence within attacks, and it didn't seem right for Phoenix to ever actually punch or kick. Let me explain: Ftilt - Presenting objects to people is a very important part of the Investigation part of the games. Some players tend to try to present the badge at everyone, which usually doesn't work. Gumshoe even mentions something to this effect. Utilt - The Silver Samurai is a popular TV show within the series, referenced many times. This particular attack is, honestly, a reference to the case in the first game where Phoenix has to defend the Silver Samurai actor. I don't think it's bad, though - fits into his playstyle of punishing mistakes. Dtilt - Forensic science is used multiple times in the series, spraying luminol to find hidden bloodstains. Usmash - Another reference... but it's one of the more rediculous and memorable times within the series (Phoenix cross-examines a parrot). It's also one of the few times Phoenix actually summons a witness as opposed to the prosecution. Uair - References the Wright v Layton game. To be honest, I was running out of ideas at this point... (Same with fair and dair) so it could easily be replaced. Bair - The bug sweeper is used a couple times to find hidden recording devices.
The only really random things are fair and uair (and I suppose dair). I like your idea of using evidence as an attack other than throwing it (for fair and uair) - the main issue I then have is how dair is supposed to work (since dropping a piece of evidence is essentially the same as holding it as an item and throwing it downward) *Edits moveset*
I like the effort, but in all honestly nothing about this jumps out at me as so groundbreakingly different from the current Wright that we need to spend a ton of hours re-spriting and coding, especially since there's a major coding gimmick.
Why not instead focus on spicing up what he currently has?
We want him to be patient and punish mistakes, this is represented in his ability to stun, reliance on slow moves or poor grab move to build evidence, and sluggish movement/attacks. However, his punish game on a mistake doesn't seem too amazing/fun, so i think this is the aspect of him to focus on. Certain things about him could be toned down, like Objection maybe. What if landing Hold It gave Pheonix a buff on hit, allowing him to capitalize off the stun better? At high evidence and opponent % he already has the hard punish with Take That. But what about outside that circumstance after stunning? Perhaps a movement buff, as if he got invigorated by stunning his opponent. A movement buff would be literally all he needs to suddenly have a combo game. With some tweaks to a few key attacks, it could work.
I actually don't know specifically what Phoenix does right now... apparently there's some passive buff he gets by connecting with attacks? There's nothing visual to show it. I don't even know what special effects his signature 3 moves have (Objection, Hold It, Take That) and find that in casual play, 90% of his attacks are worthless.
Most of his normal attacks are bad. Down tilt is measuring tape? He never used that, and the attack hits within his own body, meaning it will never be useful in normal gameplay. Same with his up aerial. Even a lot of the sprites are bad (bair, usmash, utilt, down special... not even sure what dair is). What is up special even supposed to be in the air? A generic jump?
He needs a lot of sprites redone. While redoing them, we should overhaul his moveset to be more clear and enjoyable. This new evidence mechanic seems to satisfy what he needs. You suggest a combo game when he shouldn't have one to begin with.
I really don't understand how the evidence works in UMVC3.
Though maybe I have an idea on how it can work in Crusade. Wright's Down B being evidence search effects what his Smash attacks will be like. Or at least his air attacks. We can have like 5 levels of evidence. Going from weak to strong, the evidence in possession determines the strength in his non-Special attacks. Use the Grab button to throw the evidence as a projectile. Keep in mind that pressing Down B will not automatically have him pull out evidence. Sometimes he doesnt find anything at all and is stuck with his neutral attacks.
Not really a fan of his Up Special. Sounds way too unorthodox and a bit too looney for something from the Ace Attorney series.
I'm iffy on the Side Special too, but not fully against it. I will reply on the rest of the moveset later
I really don't understand how the evidence works in UMVC3.
Though maybe I have an idea on how it can work in Crusade. Wright's Down B being evidence search effects what his Smash attacks will be like. Or at least his air attacks. We can have like 5 levels of evidence. Going from weak to strong, the evidence in possession determines the strength in his non-Special attacks. Use the Grab button to throw the evidence as a projectile. Keep in mind that pressing Down B will not automatically have him pull out evidence. Sometimes he doesnt find anything at all and is stuck with his neutral attacks.
Not really a fan of his Up Special. Sounds way too unorthodox and a bit too looney for something from the Ace Attorney series.
I'm iffy on the Side Special too, but not fully against it. I will reply on the rest of the moveset later
Kinda feel weird commenting on every single complaint about the moveset... I guess that's how things go...
Evidence in MvC3 is kind of weird. He can find and store up to three pieces of evidence while in Investigation mode, which he can take and throw at enemies. Some evidence is worthless and only good for throwing. While in Courtroom mode, if you have 3 valid pieces of evidence and land an OBJECTION!, he changes to Turnabout mode, giving a lot of buffs and combo potential. He can only use his level 3 super while in Turnabout mode, which does more damage than (almost?) anything else in the game and uses up all 3 evidences. This mode changing feels awkward and doesn't fit in Crusade, though.
I don't like having levels of evidence - that's not what happens in Phoenix Wright, he has a bunch of different evidence that is useful for different situations.
Up special is unorthodox yes... I would definitely like to find a better idea, but I can't think of anything. There aren't even really any obscure references that would work. I'd be willing to hear suggestions (as long as they aren't boring like 'third generic jump'). However, bit too looney? Spirit Channeling is a common thing with the Fey clan. In addition; Steel Samurai trading cards, cross-examining a parrot and an orca, around half of the characters. (I mean... there's a character named Oldbag)... Not to mention that Trucy actually does pull random things out of her 'magic panties'.
Kinda same with side special, but Maya is too important to leave out. It is Sakurai'd a lot, since Maya never actually used magic for anything other than channeling spirits... but she did it in MvC3 so I guess it's ok.
I don't see an issue with Phoenix summoning things when in MvC3 he did exactly that for a lot of his moves. Hell, Roy's side special is almost completely ripped from the game. So technically, in this case, it would be Usuma'd, not Sakurai'd. Lmao.
Why having one summoning character in a massive roster of characters is a sin when it's unorthodox for him to be fighting like this in the first place is a mystery to me.
Phoenix was designed as the unconventional character in MvC3, why can't he do so here as well? He's a regular person, sure, at face value he shouldn't have anything 'whacky and loony' going on: but good luck translating that perfectly into Smash. These kinds of things fit Phoenix's personality perfectly, imo.
As a huge Phoenix Wright fan, let me just say that I 100% support Roy's moveset. It represents Wright well, it's very interesting, and sounds like tons of fun, all while maintaining the gimmicky defensive playstyle he was meant to have in the first place. Of course, not everybody can be a Game and Watch, so I'm not gonna complain about one or two uninspired moves.
I will say though, honestly, that despite the fact that it pales in comparison to Roy's moveset reference-wise, the concept of Wright's current moveset is interesting and can be fun in its own (W)right...at least, it could be if it were executed better. It takes a ton of Hold it!'s just to get Wright's Take That! to a respectable level, and yet, he has to start all over on death (or if he whiffs, obviously). Plus, he has to get in close to use both, which...contradicts his defense-oriented playstyle. His only real killing move besides his strongest Take That! is up-smash, which has pretty awful range and as a result can be punished pretty easily. In fact, most of his moves have pretty laughable range. Couple that with the fact that he only has two projectiles (one of which, his f-smash of all things, is horrendously slow with Falcon Punch predictability and nonexistent knockback), and you've got...a defensive character who needs to get in really close...and yet, cannot punish reliably. Ouch. But, I digress. Point is, I support Roy's moveset...not because of these issues or anything (they CAN be fixed, after all), but simply because his is more interesting.
What is that metal detector thing called that you see people use to scan for metal stuff underground? I recall Wright used something like that and maybe that would be good use for his Dtilt attack. Gives him some range. Not sure if we can put the luminol elsewhere to where it can be useful. Perhaps add the Luminol to his Stilt and move the Sneeze to his Up Special attack.
Me and Dust came up with a new up special, which is already edited into the moveset. It may be a somewhat specific reference, but it also represents Steel Samurai and just feels like something Phoenix Wright would do. Sneeze isn't the worst idea (it's better than the current), but yeah...
Metal Detector could be used for dtilt, it's a decent idea and maybe can have a secondary side effect related to evidence. Luminol then can be the utilt. An objections to that?
It's about time there is someone else here who has actually played through the Phoenix Wright series. Yeah there's a few uninspired moves (nair, 3 generic evidence swings in the air, throws), but it's better to do that than to shoehorn in specific references everywhere. He can have 30 of those in his down special, anyways.
I support Roy's moveset idea. It really stands out more and even comes with some typical PW humour (I really love the F-smash idea and how the badge plays a role)!
About those "uninspired moves": The nair represents a part of Wright's character so not really a biggy there. The evidence swings aren't really generic once you take the evidence system in account and the throws... well, I got nothing here. I'll see if I can come up with something there.
@Roy: I myself had played and finished all the main titles, otherwise I wouldn't be involved in the topic. lol. How you think I came to suggesting the metal detector in the first place?
I was thinking about the Steel Samurai Balloon at one point too. lol. Though from the way you described it, this could be a very vulnerable situation for Wright and sounds like a time killer for one who is trying to recover.
Also, I would suggest replacing the tripping dash attack into something a bit different. Remember when Wright knocked down doors by charging towards it with his shoulder to break it down? Why not have him go into that animation, but end with a stumble to the floor in the end? This can give him a bit more range in his offense since he moves forward and falls slightly at a distance, rather than tripping at short distance like he currently does. And it still keeps the humor of him falling while trying to be tough.
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