Charizard/Lizardon (POKéMON) Discussion

Welp, this is mainly a response thread to how the Red (POKéMON) Discussion thread has been evolved, and to say the least: No sir, I don't like it!
So I went ahead and did this thread, suggestion the only POKéMON out of Red's bunch, who actually made the cut to Smash 4.
Why Charizard and not Ivysaur or Squirtle or any other Gen 1 POKéMON?
Well, first of, Charizard is in the cover of POKéMON Red and is pretty much the face of the fire-starter POKéMON, and Crusade doesn't have a Fire-type POKéMON yet. Only two Electric-types, one Fairy-type (points at Jiggles), one Psychic-type, one Fighting-type, and one grass-type. Plus, I don't want Snivy to be the one and only starter POKéMON out of the playable characters. So yeah, I suggest Charizard there.
Oh, and Charizard plays nothing like the other playable POKéMON, of course, so there's also that.
Moveset:
Special ability: multiple air-jumps
Side Smash: Heat Wave (Charizard's Side B from Project M)
Up Smash: Fire Punch (Charizard's TM48 move, Charizard does an uppercut-like motion)
Down Smash: Earthquake (same like in Smash 4)
Neutral B: Flamethrower (same like in Smash 4)
Side B: Flare Blitz (same like in Smash 4)
Up B: Fly (same like in Smash 4)
Down B: Rock Smash (same like in Smash 4)
Final Smash: Fire Blast (trying to avoid using Mega-Evolutions)

Final Smash: Fire Blast
This one gets its own point, because I need to explain that in a further detail.
Basically, Charizard spit out a big fireball, and after a short distance, it explodes into a big version of that one kanji that Fire Blast is so well known for:

Spoiler:

Oh look, it's even Red's Charizard, who is performing that in this picture.
Basically, that Kanji would phase through absolutely everything and stay in place for a while, dealing damage to anyone, who touches it (but not to those who avoid it).
The starting fireball goes through walls as well, so in maze-like stages like Hyrule Temple, Fire Blast can create some additional mind games.

List of supporters:
*CJ
*VultureDuck
*desu
*Pakeli
italic = not confirmed yet

So...what do you guys think about it?

Why are you trying to avoid Mega Evolutions?
If it's because you're trying to keep it accurate to Red's Charizard, in Pokemon Origins Red's Charizard did Mega Evolve.

Nonono, I'm trying to avoid Mega Evolutions, because every other POKéMON in Crusade, who has a Mega Evolution Final Smash in Smash 4 doesn't have a Mega Evolution in Crusade, and I wanted to emulate that with my moveset idea, in order to keep things consistent.

ok, Support, but still I prefer Red or some other Trainer

Well, if Red becomes playable, then at least his general gameplay idea should be the same like in Brawl.

TrinitroMan wrote:

Nonono, I'm trying to avoid Mega Evolutions, because every other POKéMON in Crusade, who has a Mega Evolution Final Smash in Smash 4 doesn't have a Mega Evolution in Crusade, and I wanted to emulate that with my moveset idea, in order to keep things consistent.

Mega Evolutions didn't exist when Crusade started.

image spoiler'd

always put large images in spoilers please, stretched pages are annoying.

GoldenYuiitusin wrote:

TrinitroMan wrote:

Nonono, I'm trying to avoid Mega Evolutions, because every other POKéMON in Crusade, who has a Mega Evolution Final Smash in Smash 4 doesn't have a Mega Evolution in Crusade, and I wanted to emulate that with my moveset idea, in order to keep things consistent.

Mega Evolutions didn't exist when Crusade started.

Exactly. That's another reason why Charizard should not get a Mega Evolution as his Final Smash in Crusade. Again, to keep things consistent.

Hey, I kinda like the changes! Though Blast Burn would be a cooler Final Smash.

Spoiler:

 Also, since I think Charizard's Side B in Project M is kind of strange and unrelevant, my idea is to change it to a short-range version of Fire Blast.

Wait, short-ranged Fire Blast should be his Side Smash? I'm confused...
Also, while Blast Burn definitely looks cool, it actually looks too much like Squirtle's Project M Final Smash, and when I was going to suggest Squirtle, then I would definitely give him the Project M Final Smash (because I don't have any better ideas).
Plus, Fire Blast as a Final Smash can be more gimmicky than Blast Burn.

Think about it from this angle: Side Smashes are usually a character's strongest attack available, such as Mega Man's charged shot and literally any sword fighter's full-power swing. Final Smashes are usually attacks that can only be used after a certain point in the certain character's certain game. Examples of this include Lucario's Mega Evolution, Kirby's ultra sword, Pikachu's Volt tackle, Ganondorf transforming into Ganon...the list goes on and on.

Fire Blast is a powerful attack, in fact it is the strongest Fire type move Charizard can learn through TM. Yes, I just checked. He can only learn Fire Blast through TM. Which is why I would like to suggest Inferno as Charizard's side smash!

Spoiler:

This move, while it may look similar to Fire Spin, is actually a completely different move. It deals 100 damage making it Charizard's second strongest move (Flare Blitz being the strongest one) and always gives the target the burn status, which could be replaced with a Lip's stick flower in Smash. It also has a 50% hit chance, which means the move would be a high risk-high reward kind of move, similar to Ganondorf's Crusade side smash. Oh, and since it isn't really a projectile, it could easily be made into a short-ranged attack!

So to sum it up, I think Charizard's side smash should be Inferno after doing some research since it's one of his most powerful attacks and that Blast Burn should be his Final Smash, since it's basically his ultimate move and you can only get it near the end of most Pokémon games.

Hmm...actually, I'm not 100% sure about it, since it's usually portrayed as a stream of flames in the anime and the game description is very vague as to how it looks like. Plus, I don't want to give Charizard way too new moves (I have set the limit to Gen 3, though).
Then again, Heat Wave (found the name of Charizard's Side B in Project M) was also portrayed as a fire stream in the anime when used by Arkanine and Torkoal, but not when used by Charizard, where it indeed somewhat resembles Charizard's Side B in Crusade. So when it comes to functionality and accuracy combined, I think that Heat Wave is a better choice.
However, I did checked out Blast Burn more, and now I understand why you want to suggest that as Charizard's Final Smash, because then I actually recognized that move (I only had german versions of POKéMON games).
Yeah, you're right. Blast Burn would indeed be a requirement for any Fire Starter POKéMON in Smash as a non-Mega Evolution Final Smash.
Now the question is: Which representation of Blast Burn should be used? Charizard's Blast Burn has got two different representations (an anime one which is close to the ingame version, and a manga one which is just a stream of flames again). The manga representation is way too generic, while the anime representation looks too much like Squirtle's Final Smash.
But yeah, now I also want Blast Burn to be Charizard's Final Smash, simply out of the importance of it. Now only a proper representation has to be found.

Charizard literally uses Fire Blast in his wii u/3ds final smash as Mega Charizard X so I don't see why it would need to be changed.

Dustination wrote:

Charizard literally uses Fire Blast in his wii u/3ds final smash as Mega Charizard X so I don't see why it would need to be changed.

Well Snivy uses Razor Leaf in that game so I don't see why facts need to be checked

I know why. Because if I suggest a POKéMON, then it has to be source accurate.

Mellon wrote:

Dustination wrote:

Charizard literally uses Fire Blast in his wii u/3ds final smash as Mega Charizard X so I don't see why it would need to be changed.

Well Snivy uses Razor Leaf in that game so I don't see why facts need to be checked

I know right? Sakurai needs to fact check how Snivy actually works. Duck Hunt too while he's at it, I mean the character's name is Duck Hunt DOG.

He better get Ryu right when he's shown off, I don't know if I can handle all of these inconsistencies much longer.

AEM wrote:

I know right? Sakurai needs to fact check how Snivy actually works. Duck Hunt too while he's at it, I mean the character's name is Duck Hunt DOG.

Technically, this Duck Hunt (dog) uses the duck as a companion rather than weapons, and there's that third guy with the zapper. The European name "Duck Hunt duo" makes slightly more sense.

AEM wrote:

He better get Ryu right when he's shown off, I don't know if I can handle all of these inconsistencies much longer.

EW EW EW GET THAT LEAK AWAY FROM ME

No but seriously, I don't believe in the Roy/Ryu leak one bit. There's no images, no unheard sound tracks, just some guy posting some files online and claiming that "They're from Smash 4 because I say so". Oh, and Dustination...

Dustination wrote:

Charizard literally uses Fire Blast in his wii u/3ds final smash as Mega Charizard X so I don't see why it would need to be changed.

As Trinitro has stated, Mega evolution should be avoided as much as possible since it was introduced after Crusade. We also discussed the thing about Fire Blast above, and I still want Charizard's final smash to be Blast Burn. However, Trinitro claims that it would "Look too similar to Squirtle's Final Smash" which is why I suggest having the move work like it's animation in Generation 5 (Skip to 00:17)



Charizard is engulfed in a large pillar of flames, which then splits into multiple pillars that move farther away from the user before hitting the target with a spiral of flames. In Crusade, it would work similarly: Time stops and pillars of fire move away from Charizard and engulf anyone who touches them in a multi-hitting flame that launches opponents far.

We'll be sure to avoid the gen v animation because that was also introduced after Crusade, and we don't want any inconsistencies.

I'm not sure what you don't understand, things are going to change, for all you know in the next version Mewtwo and Lucario had their final smashes changed to Mega Evolutions.

Actually, the Gen 5 animation also looks too much like Squirtle's Final Smash in Project M.

Mellon wrote:

AEM wrote:

I know right? Sakurai needs to fact check how Snivy actually works. Duck Hunt too while he's at it, I mean the character's name is Duck Hunt DOG.

Technically, this Duck Hunt (dog) uses the duck as a companion rather than weapons, and there's that third guy with the zapper. The European name "Duck Hunt duo" makes slightly more sense.

I was joking. Their interpretation of how the character works is their interpretation. There is no definitive way to make a character like Duck Hunt since there's little to work off of. It's no surprise they work as differently as they do.

Mellon wrote:

AEM wrote:

He better get Ryu right when he's shown off, I don't know if I can handle all of these inconsistencies much longer.

EW EW EW GET THAT LEAK AWAY FROM ME

No but seriously, I don't believe in the Roy/Ryu leak one bit. There's no images, no unheard sound tracks, just some guy posting some files online and claiming that "They're from Smash 4 because I say so".

Lol it's real, don't doubt it for a second. Many people have confirmed it actually being in the game, and there's even more stuff proving it so yea.

Agreed. It's even on The Cutting Room Floor, and The Cutting Room Floor never lies.

Updated the movelist and added a cheap excuse of a supporter list. Is Charizard really that unpopular?

Support

Now that's more like it. Thanks.

Support because its charizard =/, i still find it better to have Pokemon Trainer.

Thanks. Updated supporter list.

Support. We need a fire-type starter.

Thanks. Updated supporter list.