Ganondorf Discussion

^Basically this

I main Ganondorf in Smash 4, he's one of the most fun characters to play as. While it's cool they found a way to resonate with themselves that the moveset is fitting, there is virtually no reason as to why he should share similar moves to Captain Falcon. (Other than the obvious time constraints in Melee, not wanting to upset mains in Brawl/4, etc.) They could have made him large, lumbering, and powerful in reference to the way Zelda bosses act without having him share specials with Falcon. In fact, I think a lot of these points only back up the fact that it's sad he gets the treatment he does.

Not to mention a lot of them are reaching extremely far, like how the Warlock Punch is apparently a reference to what basically boils down to "that one time Ganondorf smacked Link."

So yeah I don't see how it's exactly "a required read for anyone trying to make Ganondorf for a Smash game" because it's all just a big justification, nowhere does it say "this is a good way to represent Ganondorf" because he has the potential be so much more than he is.

I don't like the ground pound idea... it feels too generic for Ganondorf. I also don't like the tornado.

What if he could charge a dark energy ball and leave it on the ground in front of him, hurting someone who touches it. And he can then punch it afterwards to break it into energy balls.
As seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyhPrTmOiDI#t=0m44s


I also would like to suggest a backhand slap for an attack somewhere, representing Wind Waker.

That seems like it could work (both fronts in one) in a similar way to his new neutral special; he creates the ball with down b, and while it is in play his down b becomes the backhand that can be used to split the ball outward. It kinda feels too similar to his (new) neutral special though; create projectile, input becomes backhand, backhand interacts with projectile. Ground pound may be generic, but apparently it's extremely important to him as a character or something. If that's true, then I don't think "generic" should matter all that much. Especially when it's actually not; How many moves like it exist, in the way it has been presented? Bowser's bomb and Yoshi's don't honestly match up here, nor does anything else I can think of right now.

I'd like to point out that the ground pound is already semi represented in the form of the aerial side special/Ganoncide

Dustination wrote:

I'd like to point out that the ground pound is already semi represented in the form of the aerial side special/Ganoncide

But it's not quite the same as activating it at any time to rocket towards the ground. Last I checked Ganondorf never really used it to grab Link's face and slam him, he really just punched the ground with a big energy ball in his fist. Including the shockwave it makes more sense as an alternate answer to the aerial Wizard's Foot.

He only ever did that in Ocarina... is there anything from Wind Waker we can take? Some kind of acrobatic move or twin blade move?

All I heard was "Ganondorf" and "ground pound".

If it isn't basically this:




It's not worth implementing.

Ryu already has that, maybe Side Smash could have him using his sword, like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMl7my1oJso

Roy wrote:

He only ever did that in Ocarina... is there anything from Wind Waker we can take? Some kind of acrobatic move or twin blade move?

And we're using Ocarina Ganondorf.

Also it's his Special Move in Hyrule Warriors, as well as two of his criticals. So I'd say it's pretty important.

GoldenYuiitusin wrote:

All I heard was "Ganondorf" and "ground pound".

If it isn't basically this:




It's not worth implementing.

Combine that with the Wizard Foot, with that happening upon landing, and that's basically what I want his D-Spec to be, yeah. :3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szggXY8k99I

Discuss.

The teleport looks like a cool idea. Everything else in the video we have at least glossed over, no?

Leafyon wrote:

The teleport looks like a cool idea. Everything else in the video we have at least glossed over, no?

Except for that ground pound D-spec.

But seriously, as for some ideas that I haven't already harped on, I like the idea of the vanishing dodgeroll. Incorporating it wouldn't even require new sprites; just use the sprites from the walking animation! I also like the idea of the chargeable energy ball, but I'm not sure whether or not the 0.9.1 trailer already mentioned that functionality at all.

Or simply get a falcon like ganon like people got to know him, a killing machine, as well as a sword variation with all the newer zelda stuff implemented.

Actually, since the currently playable Ganondorf is based on Ocarina of Time, maybe we can also include Twilight Princess Ganondorf as an alt, who could then use a variation of his Smash 4 moveset.
Flame Choke/Ganoncide can stay, since that's pretty much original and screams "Ganondorf".
Warlock Punch can be replaced with the Custom Neutral Special Warlock Blade, so Ganondorf can use his sword AND have an attack that is a bit like Falcon Punch, but has lots of differences (unchargable, tipper, super armor).
Dark Dive could be replaced with a tweaked version of the Custom Up Special Dark Fists. It would be mostly the same like Dark Fists (better recovery, no grabbing), but now if you press the Special button while he's in the air, Ganondorf can now also do a ground pound like his Ocarina self.
Sadly, I'm still unsure as to how to handle Wizard's Foot, so it's familiar, but also unique and Ganondorf-ish at the same time.
Also, most of his normals could be sword versions of his Smash 4 normals, which are essentially fist versions of his Twilight Princess attacks, he would retain his Sparta Kick from Twilight Princess, his Up Smash would be an upward thrust with his sword that causes an electric discharge of dark magic, Down Smash could be Ganondorf stabbing the ground with his sword, causing an electric discharge of dark magic, etc.
His Final Smash would be a Ganon transformation, but would be closer to what it is in Smash 4 than what it is in Crusade.

So that way, people can choose whenever they want to play as Crusade Ganondorf or as a more familiar Ganondorf, because having the ability to choose is almost always good.
But that's only my 0,02€

TrinitroMan wrote:

Actually, since the currently playable Ganondorf is based on Ocarina of Time, maybe we can also include Twilight Princess Ganondorf as an alt, who could then use a variation of his Smash 4 moveset.
Flame Choke/Ganoncide can stay, since that's pretty much original and screams "Ganondorf".
Warlock Punch can be replaced with the Custom Neutral Special Warlock Blade, so Ganondorf can use his sword AND have an attack that is a bit like Falcon Punch, but has lots of differences (unchargable, tipper, super armor).
Dark Dive could be replaced with a tweaked version of the Custom Up Special Dark Fists. It would be mostly the same like Dark Fists (better recovery, no grabbing), but now if you press the Special button while he's in the air, Ganondorf can now also do a ground pound like his Ocarina self.
Sadly, I'm still unsure as to how to handle Wizard's Foot, so it's familiar, but also unique and Ganondorf-ish at the same time.
Also, most of his normals could be sword versions of his Smash 4 normals, which are essentially fist versions of his Twilight Princess attacks, he would retain his Sparta Kick from Twilight Princess, his Up Smash would be an upward thrust with his sword that causes an electric discharge of dark magic, Down Smash could be Ganondorf stabbing the ground with his sword, causing an electric discharge of dark magic, etc.
His Final Smash would be a Ganon transformation, but would be closer to what it is in Smash 4 than what it is in Crusade.

So that way, people can choose whenever they want to play as Crusade Ganondorf or as a more familiar Ganondorf, because having the ability to choose is almost always good.
But that's only my 0,02€

That'd require a ton of work, but... If they could pull that off, I'd be more than "okay" with this.

A few notes:

-OoT Ganondorf already has the lightning U-Smash in this game; perhaps, just make it a slow but strong sword slash, similar to Ike's but at a different angle.

-Flame Choke actually functions differently in Crusade than it does in Smash proper; here, it's a kill move, while in Brawl and 4 it's a combo starter. If we're going to have Twilight Ganondorf also do the Flame Choke, it'd be best to change the move to the combo starter variation for him (along with perhaps reducing startup time to compensate for the lack of power).

-D-Spec could be handled several ways.
1) Make it the Wizard's Dropkick custom on the ground, and the Wizard's Assault in the air.
2) Change the animation so that he is thrusting with the Sage Sword rather than kicking, but keep it functionally similar.
3) Change the move entirely to a similarly-functioning version of his sword rush from Twilight Princess.
4) Mix and match these variations as you chose.

Okay, been wanting to do this for a while, so since the topic is fresh, I'm gonna voice my opinions now before this gets stale lol.

These are all the CHANGES, meaning if I don't mention it, it should stay the same. All the priority ratings are an opinion

1. Jab. Idk, current jab is pretty lame. Changing this is low priority.
2. F-Tilt. I get that it's from a game, but from a gameplay standpoint, this move is pretty pitiful due to it's lack of range and speed. I feel like a sword swing would be better seeing as Ganon has no ranged attacks that can cover in front of him. If you really want to keep that kick, then maybe you could make it jab. Changing it is low-mid priority.
3. U-Tilt. inb4 BUT I LOVE UP TILT ITS SO DISRESPECTFUL XDXDXDXDXD. This move is pretty dumb lol, plus Ganon already has a billion ways to "disrespect" so I don't really think it's necessary. Again, this could be a sword swing, but idk. Changing it is mid-high priority.
4. D-Smash. This move is pretty lame as of rn, again. Another one of the Falcon moves that DOESN'T work for Ganon (Unlike D-Air, for example). I'm sure some Zelda fans could think of something for this. Changing this is high priority.
5. F-Smash. I like how in .9.1 this move seems to come out the same day you activate it, so that's an improvement right there. I just don't like the fact that it's Falcon Punch. Maybe make it like Warlock Blade as some people mentioned (Wouldn't even be that hard to do, I imagine) and I feel like that would be good. Changing this is mid priority.
6. Side-B. I know, it's iconic, but trust me, the changes I have keep it basically the same but make it more like the Ocarina ground pound. Essentially, he should just do the ground-pound anyways, and grab any opponent in his way. He would have a small Lloyd Down-B-esque hitbox once he hits the ground, with or without an opponent. This way, we can keep the Ganoncide and Windy-Thingy, while at the same time adding the ground pound. In addition, it now works different than all other ground-pounds (The move also works the same as it does now on the ground). Changing this is low-mid priority seeing as the current move is sufficient, but changing it to this would essentially give you the best of both worlds, so I don't see why not.
7.Up-B. Of all the Falcon moves that don't work for Ganon, this is probably the one that takes the cake. Please change this move. Make it a teleport, a sword swing, I don't care, but seeing Ganon use that move (especially with the Falcon sound effect lol) just looks so... bad. I suggest making it a teleport, seeing as Ganon actually does do that. Changing this is high priority.
8.Back Air. Does he use this in a game? If not I don't really see why this isn't a sword swing. I mean, I don't really care, but If we could change it, I think we should. Changing this is low priority.
9.Down Air. If y'all want Wizard's Foot to return, then here you go. I don't want to see it replace any actual Ganon moves, so if y'all want it, then this is the only place it would make sense imo. Changing this is not a priority at all; it should only be changed if people REALLY want Wizard's Foot.

That's my two cents. I really like this character.

Shiruza wrote:

TrinitroMan wrote:

Actually, since the currently playable Ganondorf is based on Ocarina of Time, maybe we can also include Twilight Princess Ganondorf as an alt, who could then use a variation of his Smash 4 moveset.
Flame Choke/Ganoncide can stay, since that's pretty much original and screams "Ganondorf".
Warlock Punch can be replaced with the Custom Neutral Special Warlock Blade, so Ganondorf can use his sword AND have an attack that is a bit like Falcon Punch, but has lots of differences (unchargable, tipper, super armor).
Dark Dive could be replaced with a tweaked version of the Custom Up Special Dark Fists. It would be mostly the same like Dark Fists (better recovery, no grabbing), but now if you press the Special button while he's in the air, Ganondorf can now also do a ground pound like his Ocarina self.
Sadly, I'm still unsure as to how to handle Wizard's Foot, so it's familiar, but also unique and Ganondorf-ish at the same time.
Also, most of his normals could be sword versions of his Smash 4 normals, which are essentially fist versions of his Twilight Princess attacks, he would retain his Sparta Kick from Twilight Princess, his Up Smash would be an upward thrust with his sword that causes an electric discharge of dark magic, Down Smash could be Ganondorf stabbing the ground with his sword, causing an electric discharge of dark magic, etc.
His Final Smash would be a Ganon transformation, but would be closer to what it is in Smash 4 than what it is in Crusade.

So that way, people can choose whenever they want to play as Crusade Ganondorf or as a more familiar Ganondorf, because having the ability to choose is almost always good.
But that's only my 0,02€

That'd require a ton of work, but... If they could pull that off, I'd be more than "okay" with this.

A few notes:

-OoT Ganondorf already has the lightning U-Smash in this game; perhaps, just make it a slow but strong sword slash, similar to Ike's but at a different angle.

-Flame Choke actually functions differently in Crusade than it does in Smash proper; here, it's a kill move, while in Brawl and 4 it's a combo starter. If we're going to have Twilight Ganondorf also do the Flame Choke, it'd be best to change the move to the combo starter variation for him (along with perhaps reducing startup time to compensate for the lack of power).

-D-Spec could be handled several ways.
1) Make it the Wizard's Dropkick custom on the ground, and the Wizard's Assault in the air.
2) Change the animation so that he is thrusting with the Sage Sword rather than kicking, but keep it functionally similar.
3) Change the move entirely to a similarly-functioning version of his sword rush from Twilight Princess.
4) Mix and match these variations as you chose.

Thanks for the feedback.
BTW, since I have the german version, is Wizard's Dropkick the Down Special Custom 2?
Would like to know.

Up tilt idea.

https://youtu.be/t1qX5sdwGws?t=3m18s

^ Not bad. Still not TOO big a fan but I don't really think it matters too much what it is as long as it's not what it currently is. I do hope that Up Tilt is a kill move, whatever we make it. If we do go with the SD Rmx, than it should work like Mega Man's Up Tilt.

TrinitroMan wrote:

Thanks for the feedback.
BTW, since I have the german version, is Wizard's Dropkick the Down Special Custom 2?
Would like to know.

Wizard's Dropkick is the blue one, where he flies upwards slightly before diving downwards.

Slissith wrote:

Up tilt idea.

https://youtu.be/t1qX5sdwGws?t=3m18s

That's actually not bad, it's been done multiple times in mods. My personal idea is actually just an animation edit, where he points at a spot on the ground while creating a gust near there to pull in opponents, then violently clenches his hand into a fist, which creates the explosion from U-Tilt.

Ah, okay. Custom 2 then.
Also, I don't really remember anymore how Ganondorf's Sword Rush move in Twilight Princess looks like anymore, but depending on how it looks like, I may be able to combine idea 2 and 3 together by making the ground version look like his Sword Rush move from Twilight Princess while still behacing like grounded Wizard's Foot with a tipper. The aerial version could then function like either aerial Wizard's Dropkick or aerial Wizard's Assault.
Leaning towards Wizard's Assault, though, because making a dive with your sword go diagonally might look way to off.

TrinitroMan wrote:

Ah, okay. Custom 2 then.
Also, I don't really remember anymore how Ganondorf's Sword Rush move in Twilight Princess looks like anymore, but depending on how it looks like, I may be able to combine idea 2 and 3 together by making the ground version look like his Sword Rush move from Twilight Princess while still behacing like grounded Wizard's Foot with a tipper. The aerial version could then function like either aerial Wizard's Dropkick or aerial Wizard's Assault.
Leaning towards Wizard's Assault, though, because making a dive with your sword go diagonally might look way to off.

For the sword rush, he runs forwards with his sword held in a ready position, then stops and takes an offensive stance as he slashes it downwards, striking the ground powerfully.

If we're using the Wizard's Dropkick as an aerial base, I think that a low swooping slash that travels in the arc of the Dropkick would work best. If it's instead Wizard's Assault, then a powerful downwards stab would make the most sense.

Finally, Ganondorf has a senseful moveset.

It's so much senseless making him a clone of Captain Falcon...But well...