Black Shadow (F-Zero) Discussion

Two possibilities. One, the clone attack i had before on Nspecial. A clone who runs forward and performs Black Shadow's grab, holding them in place for a short time. Or two, a bit of a throwback to Sub-Zero (not doing this for any rep reasoning, just a similarity by coincidence). He jumps backward and leaves a shadow clone in his place, and anyone attacking the clone gets stunned. Probably through the grab thing i mentioned in the previous idea.

Perfect Hell wrote:

Two possibilities.  One, the clone attack i had before on Nspecial.  A clone who runs forward and performs Black Shadow's grab, holding them in place for a short time.  Or two, a bit of a throwback to Sub-Zero (not doing this for any rep reasoning, just a similarity by coincidence).  He jumps backward and leaves a shadow clone in his place, and anyone attacking the clone gets stunned.  Probably through the grab thing i mentioned in the previous idea.

Yes, I think his N-Spec should be his new D-Spec; it seems like something that'd be natural to execute with it, especially with a delay.

Perhaps something more straightforward for his replacment N-Spec, such as a projectile, or a reflecting darkness attack with his cape? ...Oh! I have an idea; Why not have a delayable clone combo that changes depending on the charge? The longer the charge, the more clones that could be implemented into the combo; at full charge, three fight in tandem. Think of the combos as like a variation of Stands from JJBA, only with a bit of Uzumaki Barrage mixed it.

Lvl1 Combo: A Rapid series of punches with a strong uppercut that stuns the opponent, then a downwards hook that groundbounces them and leaves them open for an aerial follow-up. This takes about 1 full second to finish.

Lvl2 Combo: An advancing combo of gradual punches, that ends with the clone grabbing them. Afterwards, another clone appear behind them, deals a few gut punches, then kicks them into the air. This takes about 2 full seconds to execute.

Lvl3 Combo: Two clones appear from both Black Shadow and slightly above him; The first one (clone #1) grabs them and deals a gut punch, while the second one (clone #2) lands a darkness-damaging knee thrust while they're grabbed by clone #1 (ala Knee of Justice, but no actual knockback to the grabbed opponent). A third clone (clone #3) appears behind the grabbed opponent and uppercuts them into the air, while clone #1 leaps into the air and attacks with a foot stomp. Finally, clone#2 launches them away with a gut punch. This takes about 3 full seconds to execute.

The charging animation is the same for the D-Spec to emphasize the mindgame tactics at Black Shadow's disposal, only he is slightly slowed down in the air to allow for some more focused uses. In the air, a clone first grabs them with a chokehold and slams them into the ground before the combo begins; to not meddle with the damage totals, however, it deals no actual damage and just stuns them.

Obviously, Black Shadow himself can act during the combo, but the clones will disappear if he interrupts said combo with his own attacks.

Nspec HAS to be the vortex. It's basically a signature move for him.

Perfect Hell wrote:

Nspec HAS to be the vortex.  It's basically a signature move for him.

...Aren't *all* of the special moves signature moves? What's the issue with making it D-Spec? ^_-'"

Oh, i thought you were talking about replacing the vortex with a second clone special.

Perfect Hell wrote:

Oh, i thought you were talking about replacing the vortex with a second clone special.

No, no, of course not! I just wanted a more offensive variety that could be used to force the opponent into a guessing phase, emphasizing the mindgames aspect. I also remember that someone here wanted to see more done with the clones, so I had this in mind as an idea. ^_^

Moveset updated. Side tilt was updated with knockback/usage details, a note was added to the aerials section and down throw to clarify a potential balance issue built into the moveset, all specials other than Up B completely revamped.

I ended up with a variant of my somewhat Sub-Zero inspired Down B. I think it's simple, fits his style, reps what needs to be, and gives a good alternative to what his side b had been before. The whole chargeable combo thing with multiple clones was imo overcomplicated and sounded almost like a final smash.

Speaking of, maybe we can make final smash better? I definitely want to keep the car in there, but it still sounds boring. Some more flash, something during the startup, idk.

Why not make it use the Black Fire technique?

(For those out of the loop, Black Fire is Black Shadow's version of Boost Fire, a technique that combines boosting and the spin attack; in the anime it was exclusive to those who carried a Reactor Might; Black Shadow was especially dangerous with this technique because the Black Bull carried two, which not only increased the strength of the technique, but allows him to use it TWICE instead of just once in a race.)

Kelp-Thing wrote:

Why not make it use the Black Fire technique?

(For those out of the loop, Black Fire is Black Shadow's version of Boost Fire, a technique that combines boosting and the spin attack; in the anime it was exclusive to those who carried a Reactor Might; Black Shadow was especially dangerous with this technique because the Black Bull carried two, which not only increased the strength of the technique, but allows him to use it TWICE instead of just once in a race.)

So basically, a giant black-fire barrel roll version of Ganondorf's Brawl/4 Final Smash? ...Hey, maybe he could slam opponents into his vehicle that way with a hitbox similar to the Light Arrows/Triforce Slash/Dark Pit Staff, which triggers a cutscene similar Crusade C.Falcon's!

It could be him ramming his opponent several times with the "Black Fire" technique, then summoning clones to hold them down; Then, he'd leap upwards, and soar downwards with a mock-Falcon Punch (maybe with a Bull Motif and electricity/black fire/darkness?), which causes all of the clones to explode (though there should be about five-six at most). This could all take place in the span of about three-four seconds, if sped up.

Despite looks, this being cutscene means that knockback can be anything; Why not give it knockback similar to those of C.Falcon's Final Smash?

Honestly i think we've done enough with clones.  I think he should run over the stage twice using the black fire technique.

Perfect Hell wrote:

Honestly i think we've done enough with clones.  I think he should run over the stage twice using the black fire technique.

Alright, alright. That'll do fine and simple, I suppose. ^_^'"

Moveset updated (and finished imo) with a better final smash and updated Bair description and note on aerials. I'm pretty happy with this moveset as a whole now.

The only thing i still question is the Blood Falcon and Detonator portions of Side B. Whether either or both are necessary.

Bringing this back up again because I SUPPORT and would like to bring this to people's attention.

I don't know about that Sticky thing with Blood Falcon and all that Jazz. That sounds super complex and weird, i dont know if i would support that one move. Would prefer if the blood falcon part was cut and leave the electric stun instead.
The detonator part could work as Snake's without blood falcon's appearance and could be implemented to something like a down throw (Though the "You stop running, you blow up" sounds pretty bad to be honest, reference or not. What about those with landing lag, what if you mess up a dash dance. It's super easy to mess up).
The hipnosis Down throw is just as weird. It makes people fall asleep, but to avoid making it OP they don't even last asleep long enough to eat a charged Smash? Why not make it a tech-chase instead?
Up Special is like a mix of Zelda's Farore Wind and Mewtwo's Project M Teleport then? What's the point of having teleportation in F-Air and B-Air then? Just use Up-B into F-Air and you get virtually the same effect.
Why are there moves with the description "Sakurai"? It's a good way to say "This move doesn't represent anything the character is seen with" (Like pretty much most of Sm4sh 's Duck Hunt moveset), but i feel it should still say what is this "Sakurai'd move". Is it a punch behind him? Is it a Kick behind him? Does he perform a backflip kick like Lucas? Ryu's Back air? These details all bring points into discussion because of their range, start up, strength, etc. They are too important to leave out without at least a suggested "Sakurai'd" description.

I would appreciate Links to videos or gifs of B.Shadow performing these "Teleport" and "Clone" moves because i was unaware he could even do stuff like that.
I mention this because I bet I'm not the only one who came in believing Black Shadow could take on "Falcon-dorf" 's Smash moveset..... and all of a sudden shadow vortexes, Self-healing Forward smashes and Shadow Clones? What?

And speaking of which... with Ganondorf getting retooled in next entry what will happen to the well-known Falcondorf moveset? Most of the opposition i got from decloning Ganondorf was from "Getting rid of the Falcon-dorf moveset". I bet many people would like to see that moveset implemented at some point and will most likely believe that Black Shadow should be the one representing it.

Discuss \ o /

Well, like i said in the post directly above yours, im not sure about the side special either. Been a while, maybe i'll revisit it some time. It would probably be best to just have the stun ring by itself.

For down throw, I specifically said you would have enough time to hit with anything you want except a charged smash. As in, you can't sit there and fully charge a move, but getting a free anything else, including uncharged smash is extremely good for a throw. It's also a direct reference to something he has done in canon.

No, Up Special is more unique than that. You can manipulate your flight path, which i did say in the moveset. As in, Lucario up special movement, except slower and with the other properties described. You also are not invisible during the movement, you are in a dark ball. Other moves that have built in teleports on the other hand are more like shadow-steps. Imagine wesker-esque movements, short distance so it still feels like a forward air or what have you. Perhaps the movement can even have a hitbox as his body passes through the space, so someone there gets hit into the actual attack.

Sakurai'd moves because a spriter can put whatever the heck they want there, which gives them more creative freedom over their character. If i used up everything canonical already, i dont want to take creative liberties away from the creator. Balance properties do not play into anything here. For example, the Nair. It describes a fire explosion. It says nothing about the strength, size, laggyness, etc. and as far as what you described as necessary, it provides none of these. Any move described in most movesets could be tinkered with in balance development to have any number of varied properties. If you really want moves to go there some stuff can be arbitrarily made up, but i don't see it as necessary.

"Falcondorf" Black Shadow would seriously be the laziest, worst thing you could do to the character. People only suggest that because they don't follow the series enough to know all of the amazing and unique things the character can actually do, and they think that is the only possible way to improve Ganondorf's moveset while keeping the original (which might be true for official smash, but not for crusade). Here's a better idea than ruining Black Shadow: Put Falcondorf moveset as a Ganondorf alt, or maybe even a Black Shadow alt. But don't ruin the character.

I created this quite a long time ago and i dont remember anymore where each different thing comes from. Some of them i do but others i dug pretty deep for. Cutscenes, anime moments, etc. One thing to keep in mind is that

Spoiler:

. Nothing in this moveset has never before been done by Black Shadow, it is all canonical.

Perfect Hell wrote:

Here's a better idea than ruining Black Shadow: Put Falcondorf moveset as a Ganondorf alt

I could dig that.