Super Smash Bros Wii U/3DS Discussion

I agree with bro and dry and probably some other people as well, you can't simply say a character isn't in because it's also used in a moveset, that's poor evidence, and with everything toads done we still have a chance of seeing him in the game. Either way, we can't predict the future, Sakurai made us all think we'd get someone near release dates, but seems to have changed that. So for now, we don't know anything about who's going to be announced, and who's not. So I still go strong for Toad, and as Dry said, just because Toad is in Peaches moveset, doesn't mean he is not deconfirmed.

Yes, go by the same exact delusional logic that people clung to in Brawl.

See how that goes for you. Just don't come crying to me when you finally see the situation for what it is.

And no, Sakurai didn't "make" you think anything. That was a case of people jumping the gun (myself included) after we had Olimar and Toon Link revealed for release dates.
But considering out of 6 reveals so far, it is ONLY those two that were revealed on a release date (or in Olimar's case, the day before; Pikmin 3 came out on a Saturday), its clear that the "character every release date" was never intended in the first place.

Ok, so forgiving the slight ferociousness, what do you have to say to the idea that Toad is not de-confirmed just by being in Peach's moveset?

Either way, I wouldn't really care if we didn't get Toad, I just think that we can't de-confirm him because he's part of Peach's moveset. I wouldn't go crying to you if Toad wasn't in, that'd be silly. It'd be like crying over Ridley or Little Mac not getting in. I am simply saying, in my own opinion, Toad is not de-confirmed, or confirmed yet, and we will simply have to wait and see if he is/isn't.

Dr. CanadianBacon wrote:

Either way, I wouldn't really care if we didn't get Toad, I just think that we can't de-confirm him because he's part of Peach's moveset. I wouldn't go crying to you if Toad wasn't in, that'd be silly. It'd be like crying over Ridley or Little Mac not getting in. I am simply saying, in my own opinion, Toad is not de-confirmed, or confirmed yet, and we will simply have to wait and see if he is/isn't.

It would feel a little redundant having two different toads in smash.

C_Mill24 wrote:

Dr. CanadianBacon wrote:

Either way, I wouldn't really care if we didn't get Toad, I just think that we can't de-confirm him because he's part of Peach's moveset. I wouldn't go crying to you if Toad wasn't in, that'd be silly. It'd be like crying over Ridley or Little Mac not getting in. I am simply saying, in my own opinion, Toad is not de-confirmed, or confirmed yet, and we will simply have to wait and see if he is/isn't.

It would feel a little redundant having two different toads in smash.

Idk, I may also, I don't feel like Toad will actually make it but I wouldn't say he's de-confirmed yet

Dry wrote:

Ok, so forgiving the slight ferociousness, what do you have to say to the idea that Toad is not de-confirmed just by being in Peach's moveset?

I'd say that it was wishful thinking.
Even if it technically isn't a direct disconfirmation, it's a glaring red flag.

There's nothing stopping Peach using toad during the first stage of Adventure Mode in SSBM, why should it matter here?

You're comparing a minor cameo on a single player mode to a separate character?

While using the same logic that people used in Brawl (that there is more than one Toad so one can be her meat shield and one can be playable)?

Considering you were arguing about how Xerneas can be playable about a month ago, I guess I really shouldn't be surprised...

Wait, people speculated stuff on the internet for Brawl, secondly you've been here since then? I didn't know a Smash Community existed back then

How long do you think SmashBoards has been around?

As for myself, I was a lurker, didn't have an account until post-Brawl.

Marty the Thwomp wrote:

How long do you think SmashBoards has been around?

As for myself, I was a lurker, didn't have an account until post-Brawl.

I GUESS I WAS JUST TO YOUNG hurhur

Anyways, I'm gonna stop speculating since everyone here can beat my poor speculations, so I'm gonna keep my speculations to myself from now on xD

Golden, no strawmen. We're saying that Toad is not de-confirmed, not that he is likely to come in. The former argument arises from your statement that "Toad isn't in. We've known since September. Get over it." Or something along those lines.

A minor cameo on a single player mode can be compared to a separate playable character. In the Adventure Mode case, what we see is a number of Toads in the first level (one near the Yoshis, one near the end and one if Peach uses her neutral B). The fact that there are multiple Toads here can be attributed to the fact that, canonically, there can be multiple Toads. You wouldn't see a cameo of multiple Waluigis or Peppy Hares. The very nature of "Toad" is that the term can be used to describe the species, not just the character. It's the same case with Yoshi; both SSB and Melee Adventure feature a complete rainbow of Yoshis, Yoshi the species, but the one that's playable, the green one, is Yoshi the character.

So back to the actual debate, what this means is that even though Toad appears in Peach's moveset, he is not de-confirmed as a playable character, because Toad can be used in two senses: as a species, and as a character. It is not at all a logical leap to say that Peach's Toad may be just a member of species, especially considering that he's already much smaller than the character Toad and his model can easily be coloured differently to make a completely different character from the playable Toad, in this case Toad the character, the one who appears in Mario Kart and SMB2 and all the other stuff.

Had a bit of time lol

Dry wrote:

A minor cameo on a single player mode can be compared to a separate playable character. In the Adventure Mode case, what we see is a number of Toads in the first level (one near the Yoshis, one near the end and one if Peach uses her neutral B). The fact that there are multiple Toads here can be attributed to the fact that, canonically, there can be multiple Toads. You wouldn't see a cameo of multiple Waluigis or Peppy Hares. The very nature of "Toad" is that the term can be used to describe the species, not just the character. It's the same case with Yoshi; both SSB and Melee Adventure feature a complete rainbow of Yoshis, Yoshi the species, but the one that's playable, the green one, is Yoshi the character.

The Toad in the Yoshi stage is "The" Toad, the same Toad that is used in Peach's moveset.

Ganonthegreat wrote:

Dry wrote:

A minor cameo on a single player mode can be compared to a separate playable character. In the Adventure Mode case, what we see is a number of Toads in the first level (one near the Yoshis, one near the end and one if Peach uses her neutral B). The fact that there are multiple Toads here can be attributed to the fact that, canonically, there can be multiple Toads. You wouldn't see a cameo of multiple Waluigis or Peppy Hares. The very nature of "Toad" is that the term can be used to describe the species, not just the character. It's the same case with Yoshi; both SSB and Melee Adventure feature a complete rainbow of Yoshis, Yoshi the species, but the one that's playable, the green one, is Yoshi the character.

The Toad in the Yoshi stage is "The" Toad, the same Toad that is used in Peach's moveset.

How do you know it is "The" Toad though? Considering that a large portion of the Mushroom Kingdom's residents, are toads. Peach could just be using one of her servant Toads, or a toad that lives somewhere in the Mushroom Kingdom. If we got a playable Toad, he'd be "The" Toad, and most likely not just a random Toad telling you that your princess is in another castle.

But still, how would you know that the Toad that Peach uses, is "The" Toad?

His jacket is unique, when you see that jacket you know that the Toad you're looking at is the character "Toad".

Except that, shocking as it is, there really is no "The" Toad.
That was a concept that started in America through outside media and common fanwank about which particular Toad in multiple Mario games is "Toad". Even when none of it makes sense.

Even Ganonthegreat's point about the "jacket" is moot, as there's more than one Toad in existence that has the "red spot, blue jacket" color scheme, and some Toads that people have labeled "The" Toad have the solid red color scheme, itself a common color scheme of generic Toads.

And Dry, really? I'm not even going to get into the problems in the second paragraph and just focus on the most ridiculous part of the entire post:
"especially considering that he's already much smaller than the character Toad"
I mean, what?
The Mario series is inconsistent with sizes of Toads. In one game, their mushroom caps come up to Mario's neck, the next, they're the same height as Mario, and the game after that, they're midgets compared to him. Even if all the Toads people claim as "Toad" were actually "Toad", he would be no exception to this.

I'm really confused here.

http://www.mariowiki.com/toad

"Toad (Kinopio, キノピオ in Japanese) is a character who is Princess Peach's attendant and a long time protector of the Mushroom Kingdom. He is actually a singular character among an entire species of look-alikes (much like Yoshi is to the Yoshi species)."

Dustination wrote:

I'm really confused here.

http://www.mariowiki.com/toad

"Toad (Kinopio, キノピオ in Japanese) is a character who is Princess Peach's attendant and a long time protector of the Mushroom Kingdom. He is actually a singular character among an entire species of look-alikes (much like Yoshi is to the Yoshi species)."

Yes this seems like the most accurate description. But what Toad is "the" Toad? Considering there are Toad's that look like "The" Toad. Oh god Mario why do you confuse me so much?! How about we call it with... Toad is not deconfirmed completely yet?

Dr. CanadianBacon wrote:

Dustination wrote:

I'm really confused here.

http://www.mariowiki.com/toad

"Toad (Kinopio, キノピオ in Japanese) is a character who is Princess Peach's attendant and a long time protector of the Mushroom Kingdom. He is actually a singular character among an entire species of look-alikes (much like Yoshi is to the Yoshi species)."

Yes this seems like the most accurate description. But what Toad is "the" Toad? Considering there are Toad's that look like "The" Toad. Oh god Mario why do you confuse me so much?! How about we call it with... Toad is not deconfirmed completely yet?

I think that's all we can really agree on.

Dustination wrote:

I'm really confused here.

http://www.mariowiki.com/toad

"Toad (Kinopio, キノピオ in Japanese) is a character who is Princess Peach's attendant and a long time protector of the Mushroom Kingdom. He is actually a singular character among an entire species of look-alikes (much like Yoshi is to the Yoshi species)."

Sadly, MarioWiki is wrong in this instance.
http://legendsoflocalization.com/qa-toad-is-trolling-us-all/

1. There is no "The Toad".

2. If there was, he has shown inconsistent sizes as he's pretty much the same fucking thing as a generic Toad.
Their sizes differ by game, not by one Toad next to another in the same game.

As for your second paragraph, it's not so much "debunking" it (as that would imply it's objective fact) as it is calling out the sheer idiocy of the logic it gives.

I mean really, using Yoshi in Melee's Adventure Mode as an example? When said Adventure Mode features 5 different Links, 2 sets of Ice Climbers, a couple dozen Kirbies plus a giant Kirby, two mini Donkey Kong's and a giant Donkey Kong among others?
So what, is Link a species? Is there a DK species somewhere?

But that's the thing, he's not the same thing as a generic Toad. He is known to be braver, stronger, and capable of driving karts and playing sports. The Toad that fits this description is always the same character, and the Toad that fits this description has always been the same size between games.

And apologies, but I'm not following that last bit. Are you trying to say that Toad isn't a species? I'm not sure how that ties into your main argument.

He's saying that Melee's adventure mode was a bad example for the Yoshi species because there are multiples of every character within said mode.

Perfect Hell wrote:

He's saying that Melee's adventure mode was a bad example for the Yoshi species because there are multiples of every character within said mode.

This.

Redesigned Blaster, looks pretty snazzy IMO.

Ah, I see. Well I got that; I understand that using Adventure Mode to show that Yoshi is a species is dumb, yes. That still doesn't at all contradict the fact that Yoshi is a species. And in any case, I think you accidentally latched onto the wrong part of that paragraph you were so not fond of; the Yoshi bit was just an addendum to use as an example parallel to that of Toad's, and the main point of that paragraph is that there is indeed a difference between the Toad species and the Toad character.

I must say, the new Ray Gun design is soo ugly.