Super Smash Bros Wii U/3DS Discussion

lookin' like a ma'fuggin nerf gun

It look more like a hair dryer to me.

I... I kinda like it...

SK must have the world's classiest hair dryer

To me it looks a little more like a power drill. It's only the colours I'm not fond of.

Dry wrote:

Ah, I see. Well I got that; I understand that using Adventure Mode to show that Yoshi is a species is dumb, yes. That still doesn't at all contradict the fact that Yoshi is a species. And in any case, I think you accidentally latched onto the wrong part of that paragraph you were so not fond of; the Yoshi bit was just an addendum to use as an example parallel to that of Toad's, and the main point of that paragraph is that there is indeed a difference between the Toad species and the Toad character.

Except there isn't. There is literally nothing different between the Toad race and the perceived "Toad" character.

Size is a non-existent point; whenever "Toad" and other Toads are by each other, they're the same size.
Color is irrelevant, since multiple Toads share the red and blue color scheme. (And solid red or solid blue in some sightings of "Toad".)
Abilities are a moot point since any Toad is capable of the abilities shown by "Toad", as 3D World shows.

Essentially, Toad is the good guy counterpart to Koopa. A species that typically has an unnamed "representative" in multiple games (and some with names), but no actual established character that goes by the name of his species.

Yoshi is a different case entirely. While he is not different from his species, there is an established Yoshi that just goes by his species name, which, if nothing else, is outright confirmed in Yoshi's Island DS, where Yoshi is shown to be the 7th Star Child, born after the events of the plot. (Which means yes, Yoshi is ironically not the star of his own spin-off Yoshi's Island franchise)

Pic of the day. Here's the new edition of the Ray Gun. The Smash Bros. mark appears backward because it acts like a stamp. We design the Ray Gun carefully each time to ensure it doesn't look like a real gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toad_(Mario) Second paragraph:

"While Toad is the name of an individual, it also refers to an entire species (much like Yoshi and Birdo). However, in Japan, the species name is sometimes called Kinoko-zoku (キノコ族?), literally "Mushroom People" (which is an alternate name for used in earlier localizations, along with "Mushroom Retainers"). In other words, Toad (Kinopio) is a member of the Toads (Kinokos / Mushroom People). In Mario franchise, there are also some other individual toad characters (e.g., Toadette, Toadsworth, Toadbert). The common point of most toads is their traditionally large mushroom cap and vest."

http://www.mariowiki.com/toad#Confusion_with_appearances Mario Wiki, "Confusion with Appearences":

"Many red-spotted Toads appear throughout the Mushroom Kingdom and other locales, and are often confused to be the actual character named Toad. It is mistaken that Toad makes appearances in games such as Paper Mario and Super Mario Strikers where there are many characters that look identical to Toad, but are just generic members of the species."

Yes they come from wiki's, but I'd like to see anyone find a "more legitimate" source that says otherwise.

Why are we still discussing about Toad? It's so boring.

Well everyone thought Toon Link was de-confirmed when he appeared driving the train on the spirit tracks level through similar logic ("part of a move or a stage, therefor can't be playable"), yet he actually was confirmed afterward. In other words, there is absolutely no way to say Toad is de-confirmed based solely on that logic.

Speculate away, good sirs.

I dunno why you aren't a fan of it SK, I personally really like it.

Also,
"The Smash Bros. mark appears backward because it acts like a stamp."
MIIVERSE STAMPS CONFIRMED FOR SMASH BROS. U.


...
Really though, they would be a neat replacement of Stickers. Except they'd have more of a use, you know?

Idk, I'm use to seeing the Ray Gun look like a gun since Smash 64. Though I understand why its being done the way it is now, its still a turn off, personally.

Well C_Mill's kinda right, it is boring to discuss Toad. It's just that Golden seemed convinced a couple of pages ago that Toad was absolutely de-confirmed, I argued that wasn't the case, and I guess both of us constantly found something to rebut in each other's posts.

@Golden: Merc's post, pretty much.

As for the Ray gun, it's interesting how they seem to be taking a more wacky style. SSB's always been somewhat "grittier", such as with its DK and Bowser voices.

Yea, I always preferred the more grittier style, so I guess that is why I don't like the design of the new Ray Gun

MercuryHg34 wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toad_(Mario) Second paragraph:

"While Toad is the name of an individual, it also refers to an entire species (much like Yoshi and Birdo). However, in Japan, the species name is sometimes called Kinoko-zoku (キノコ族?), literally "Mushroom People" (which is an alternate name for used in earlier localizations, along with "Mushroom Retainers"). In other words, Toad (Kinopio) is a member of the Toads (Kinokos / Mushroom People). In Mario franchise, there are also some other individual toad characters (e.g., Toadette, Toadsworth, Toadbert). The common point of most toads is their traditionally large mushroom cap and vest."

http://www.mariowiki.com/toad#Confusion_with_appearances Mario Wiki, "Confusion with Appearences":

"Many red-spotted Toads appear throughout the Mushroom Kingdom and other locales, and are often confused to be the actual character named Toad. It is mistaken that Toad makes appearances in games such as Paper Mario and Super Mario Strikers where there are many characters that look identical to Toad, but are just generic members of the species."

Yes they come from wiki's, but I'd like to see anyone find a "more legitimate" source that says otherwise.

"These can't be verified, but no one can provide anything else, so I win."

It's like "Pit, Peach, and Meowth were planned for Smash 64" all over again...

Hell, the second quote brings up the point that people mistake "Toad" for what is just a generic member of the species. Which is essentially what people do all the frigging time. And it all started with the American Super Mario Bros. 2.

C_Mill24 wrote:

Why are we still discussing about Toad? It's so boring.

cmill u always think exactly what i think ily

MercuryHg34 wrote:

Well everyone thought Toon Link was de-confirmed when he appeared driving the train on the spirit tracks level through similar logic ("part of a move or a stage, therefor can't be playable"), yet he actually was confirmed afterward. In other words, there is absolutely no way to say Toad is de-confirmed based solely on that logic.

Speculate away, good sirs.

This was the main point of my role in this discussion, since the original issue seemed to be that you thought Toad was de-confirmed since he is in Peach's moveset. You can disagree with the wiki all you want and I honestly don't care, but you shouldn't be telling people not to speculate the way they do using that logic.

Toon Link is a different situation entirely, but this topic has gone far too long and it doesn't seem likely that you'd listen anyway, so I'm just going to sit back and wait until the coveted "I told you so" moment.

Golden wrote:

Toon Link is a different situation entirely

How is it different? Both characters are part of a move or stage, meaning there's a "glaring red flag" pointing to their de-confirmation, right? Yet TL is in. Therefore you can't use that logic to de-confirm or even say there's strong evidence to de-confirm Toad. Or was that not somehow your first argument?

And really, an "I told you so" moment? Everyone's going to have more than one of those on this thread, yours isn't going to be any more special because you made a big stink about it. Get off of your high horse, because shit like this:

Golden wrote:

Toad isn't in. We've known that since September. Get over it.

Better it be me that brings them down now than their own delusion later on.

Yes, go by the same exact delusional logic that people clung to in Brawl.
See how that goes for you. Just don't come crying to me when you finally see the situation for what it is.

...and it doesn't seem likely that you'd listen anyway, so I'm just going to sit back and wait until the coveted "I told you so" moment.

...is not only easily perceived as offensive by others and completely unnecessary, it doesn't make you sound any smarter than you may already be. You can communicate your point in a respectable manner, you know.

Ok so firstly, this argument about whether Toad is a character or species is actually completely irrelevant to any purpose of this thread and spawned off an issue that actually is relevant, whether or not Toad is ruled out entirely from being in the next game. The answer to the latter is obvious; we're dealing with Sakurai, literally anything is possible. So no, he's not deconfirmed no matter what logic or speculations you want to use because if any game dev is a wild card, it's Sakurai.

Back to the pointless irrelevant topic you guys seem to like debating, there is no accepted answer. Unless you can prove me wrong with direct quotes and provide the sources (good sources, not wikis), Nintendo has never outright stated as a fact whether there is a character Toad or just the species. Therefore, we can only go by whatever is the generally accepted answer and acknowledge the possibility that said answer is wrong, yet still technically more correct as the generally accepted answer as defined by the community. What is that answer? That Toad is in fact both a specific character and a species. Every single wiki with anything to with the Mario series lists their articles as such. Nintendo wiki, fantendo wiki, mario wiki, etc. They all say the same thing; that Toad is a specific character as well as a species. It is entirely plausible that every one of these sources is wrong, yet regardless of where this idea came from it is the generally accepted viewpoint of the community at large and is therefore a more correct statement than "there is no Toad character".

Now can we please go back to discussing things that actually have some sort of relevance?

Dustination wrote:

I wonder how the platforms will transition into different formations. Will they appear from/disappear into the ground or will they rise into the sky or what?

@PH4 The Toad character vs species issue was already resolved. What Golden initially had an issue with was whether or not Toad was de-confirmed for SSB4 or not (which by the way is a relevant topic), and I simply stated that by his logic Toon Link would have been de-confirmed by his appearence in the Spirit Tracks stage. Since that's not the case, his argument no longer holds water. And he was being a dick about it to Dry and some others, which I don't necessarily tolerate since this is supposed to be friendly, light-hearted discussion about a sequel to a game series we all love.

Mr. Terrible wrote:

Dustination wrote:

I wonder how the platforms will transition into different formations. Will they appear from/disappear into the ground or will they rise into the sky or what?

99% sure this is fake because that is Ike in the picture haha

Dustination wrote:

Mr. Terrible wrote:

Dustination wrote:

I wonder how the platforms will transition into different formations. Will they appear from/disappear into the ground or will they rise into the sky or what?

99% sure this is fake because that is Ike in the picture haha

And for the 1%...
...
...
...
...
IKE CONFIRMED!

madam im adam wrote:

C_Mill24 wrote:

Why are we still discussing about Toad? It's so boring.

cmill u always think exactly what i think ily

yeah cool =)

MercuryHg34 wrote:

Golden wrote:

Toon Link is a different situation entirely

How is it different? Both characters are part of a move or stage, meaning there's a "glaring red flag" pointing to their de-confirmation, right? Yet TL is in. Therefore you can't use that logic to de-confirm or even say there's strong evidence to de-confirm Toad. Or was that not somehow your first argument?

So you actually want to know, eh? Very well.
For one, it's the Toad performing the same exact role since Melee, and the same exact logic about how "Toad can still be playable" was applied verbatim during Brawl speculation when Peach was shown to use the Toad Guard move again. Even worse is that supposedly, the same logic was used in Melee speculation to a lesser degree, though I have to get that verified by someone like ChronoBound. History has a nasty habit of repeating itself.
Toon Link is a Smash veteran. As in, he was a playable character already.
Second, that's not Toon Link on the stage.
This may come as a legitimate shock to you, but I was on the "Toon Link is unlikely to come back" side prior to his reveal (not "he isn't" like I am with Toad). A major counterpoint people would give me is that statement, and in hindsight, there were right.
While Smash treats all "Links" as the same individual, Sakurai gives the "Toon" moniker specifically to the Link incarnation from Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass. While there were other Links that used the same appearance (Four Swords, Four Swords Adventures, Minish Cap), none of them are referred to as such.

Toon Link's Trophy wrote:

Link as he appeared in The Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass, with big eyes and an expressive face. He lived peacefully on Outset Island until a bird captured his little sister, and he came to her rescue. In The Wind Waker, he had to crawl, press up to walls, and the like. His green clothes were worn on his 12th birthday and are the lucky outfit of the hero of legend.

In comparison, Link's trophy doesn't give any specific incarnation a mention, not even the one he is in Brawl, from Twilight Princess. Zelda's trophy makes mention of both her Ocarina of Time incarnation and her Twilight Princess incarnation.

That being said, Spirit Tracks Link is a different incarnation from WW/PH Link, being many years later. Remember that Toon Link is specifically WW/PH Link and not just all Links of that artstyle? It still applies here. Doubly so, since ST Link's "main outfit" is the Royal Engineer's outfit rather than the legendary green cap and tunic (which he only puts on to sneak Zelda out because it's the Recruit Uniform of the Royal Guards; while you can stay in this outfit for the rest of the game, you can get your Engineer clothes back after collecting 15 stamps). So while we had Royal Engineer ST Link, it meant nothing for Hero's Clothes WW/PH Link, who had already been in Smash.

With that in mind, the only feasible solution to where a Toad still has any sort of chance is if it's specifically Captain Toad of Galaxy, Galaxy 2, and 3D World, who is often perceived to be "Toad" and is at least a step up from the generic race.
But at the same time, it's too farfetched to be believable.

Quote :

And really, an "I told you so" moment? Everyone's going to have more than one of those on this thread, yours isn't going to be any more special because you made a big stink about it.

Actually, you underestimate this.
It's a ticking time bomb of repeated history, unreasonably high hopes being crushed, and pride being swallowed inevitable to detonate.
All of which formed from arrogant denial against my initial brutal honesty.

Just need popcorn and reserved seats to the show.

Quote :

Get off of your high horse, because shit like this:

Golden wrote:

Toad isn't in. We've known that since September. Get over it.

Better it be me that brings them down now than their own delusion later on.

Yes, go by the same exact delusional logic that people clung to in Brawl.
See how that goes for you. Just don't come crying to me when you finally see the situation for what it is.

...and it doesn't seem likely that you'd listen anyway, so I'm just going to sit back and wait until the coveted "I told you so" moment.

...is not only easily perceived as offensive by others and completely unnecessary, it doesn't make you sound any smarter than you may already be. You can communicate your point in a respectable manner, you know.

I apologize for most of my later words due to them being unnecessarily antagonistic. My earlier words however, I still stand by. It is brutal honesty, which is quite necessary in a time like this. Those that find offense in them need to grow a thicker skin and take not the words I am saying to heart, but the message I am conveying. The message that it is time to move on, denial will only bring more pain, and better I be the villain that crushes the remaining hope now than have that very hope be the one that does them in, as it will be much more painful.


And with that, I end this post before I start becoming more Shakespearean.

Oh well Golden you don't have to worry about me, I accept all the swearing and rhetoric as part of your personality. Merc probably deserves the apology though. Also, don't call that stuff Shakespearean...

In any case, I feel you may be overestimate the power of "history repeating itself" somewhat. For a start, that idea, while often true, cannot even apply to the argument we're pitting against you. The idea that Toad isn't de-confirmed cannot even be proved false based on what happens in the future; if Toad gets in, then yay, we're right, but if he doesn't, it is still not a logical step that he was already de-confirmed beforehand by simply appearing in Peach's moveset. Now if we were arguing that Toad was likely to come in, then yes, everything you say is 100% agreeable (except maybe that "arrogant denial" thing... really gotta tone down your implicit self-importance, man), but we're not arguing that, as was made clear way back when.

But the other thing is, Merc's right. There are gonna be so many "I told you so" moments from a large number of people. But this is a speculation thread. Those are inevitable.

And yeah, also what PH said. I just wanted to make sure you didn't actually feel that "Toad isn't in. We've known since September. Get over it."

@Pic: Why is Ike holding a white sword...? Could be Alondite, but that just makes me ask "why" even more...

Didn't Project M have something about Bowser's shell having resistances? Maybe this is what the picture is hinting at.

Ganonthegreat wrote:

Didn't Project M have something about Bowser's shell having resistances? Maybe this is what the picture is hinting at.

Or it's his Up Smash colliding with Sonic's Spin Dash.

Well it's obviously that, but it could still represent shell defense. I can't find the quote from Sakurai though.