Super Smash Bros. Crusade Tiers Part 1 (Top Tiers) Discussion

Hey, it's been a while, hasn't it?

About an hour ago, I finished up a video I plan to make public after I gain some advice from you guys. I'm looking for constructive criticism, not flat out criticisms like, "Why isn't Goku Top Tier? This list sucks!"
Not looking for stuff like that.

The video itself is about two and a half minutes, as this is really my first "in-depth" video of fighting game characters as a whole. The character explanations themselves are kind of vague, which is why I'm posting this video here for advice.

I plan to start working on the High Tiers video tomorrow, after I read through some comments and fix some things in the tier list I'm basing this off of.

Thanks in advance, everyone!
-DiamondJoyride

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhdHgQ1zFWQ <- video link (the video is unlisted. You can still access it!).

Damn you! I'm doing the same thing, except in text format. You have defeated my laziness.

Other than G&W and Lucas, the others have been Top tier in nearly every game (except Brawl for Fox and Falco/Marth for Smash 4). You didn't even mention Lucas's "Attack Up" (or whatever the "correct" name is) which brings his powerful attacks even more powerful and helps with his mobility problems. I wonder where the characters I use the most (Krystal, Klanoa, Pichu, Phoenix Wright) end up. (don't spoil it)

As for suggestions: I think your tier list is becoming a lot more like how I think it actually is. I still don't think G&W is top 2, but you made me pick him up to play.

For G&W: The length of his hitboxes require canceling to get any fast play. This could be considered a weakness, as when G&W still has his Ftilt out for 3 seconds Fox could be doing something mean. Generally due to the massive startup of his smashes, they are reduced to read KOs. You're probably better of finishing someone with Fair, Dair, or Uspecial.

For Peach: Fair is her worst aerial. By far. If you're looking for good aerials try Bair, Nair, Uair, or even Dair. Fair is the worst. Bair and Uair actually have immense power; they are your kill moves. Double jump to Uair is an extremely long range upward KO that can be set up by literally anything. She's a lot more dangerous than you think.
Edit: Forgot to mention turnip. Turnip is good, use it.

For Petey: I hate Petey. Put him in F tier.

Seriously though, Petey's good moves are literally Sspecial, Utilt, Dspecial, and Dair. That doesn't even get him that far. Tornado can be avoided using shield and good placement, and is generally easy to read. He's not THAT good. Very gimmicky, at best. You say he struggles with characters with fast attacks, but literally half the cast has fast attacks. Puff should be in his place, methinks.


Also note: I think most of the Melee top tiers are there:
A. Because devs borrowed their good movesets
B. Because they are the characters with the most fleshed out meta.
As time goes on there will be new discoveries that boost certain newcomers to top tier. But for now, we know Fox, Falco, Marth, and Peach the best.

I myself don't look at tier lists too much (I use Roy in Melee, Wolf in Brawl, and Swordfighter/Robin/Roy in Smash 4. I am also better with Zelda than Sheik ), but Nix~ is right in some regards.

I will agree that, if Petey is countered by "Agile" characters, he should be at lower-mid tier at best; Robin has the same mobility problem (and great strengths), and he is placed pretty low. 

As for G&W, he might not be second-best, but he is still pretty beefy, and he appears to be buffed in Crusade. The lingering hitboxes are both a pro and con; you can easily catch opponents with an attack that 'appears' to be over, though if the attack completely misses, you are very vulnerable (though G&W isn't the only "Top Tier" who would potentially have this problem).

Edit: I myself would think Klanoa could be pretty high, with the Wind Bullet grab/throw, his Forward air (SOOO good), decent mobility, safe Anti-Projectile approach with his grounded Up-Special, and surprising range in most of his attacks (FTilt, DTilt, Dash, FAir, UAir, FSmash. Even his Jab). He has problems (linking attacks together, some attacks requiring proper positioning, LINGERING recovery), but plenty of higher-tiered characters have somewhat similar problems (most have "bleh" recoveries, pin-point/perfect timing hitboxes, and generally low survivability)

Nix~ wrote:

As for suggestions: I think your tier list is becoming a lot more like how I think it actually is. I still don't think G&W is top 2, but you made me pick him up to play.

For G&W: The length of his hitboxes require canceling to get any fast play. This could be considered a weakness, as when G&W still has his Ftilt out for 3 seconds Fox could be doing something mean. Generally due to the massive startup of his smashes, they are reduced to read KOs. You're probably better of finishing someone with Fair, Dair, or Uspecial.

For Peach: Fair is her worst aerial. By far. If you're looking for good aerials try Bair, Nair, Uair, or even Dair. Fair is the worst. Bair and Uair actually have immense power; they are your kill moves. Double jump to Uair is an extremely long range upward KO that can be set up by literally anything. She's a lot more dangerous than you think.
Edit: Forgot to mention turnip. Turnip is good, use it.

For Petey: I hate Petey. Put him in F tier.

Seriously though, Petey's good moves are literally Sspecial, Utilt, Dspecial, and Dair. That doesn't even get him that far. Tornado can be avoided using shield and good placement, and is generally easy to read. He's not THAT good. Very gimmicky, at best. You say he struggles with characters with fast attacks, but literally half the cast has fast attacks. Puff should be in his place, methinks.


Also note: I think most of the Melee top tiers are there:
A. Because devs borrowed their good movesets
B. Because they are the characters with the most fleshed out meta.
As time goes on there will be new discoveries that boost certain newcomers to top tier. But for now, we know Fox, Falco, Marth, and Peach the best.

Thanks for the advice. I guess I didn't get some of the right attributes, heh.

I just started working on the High Tiers video a couple of hours ago. I want to put a lot more effort into that one (and by that I mean lengthier descriptions of the characters), and I'll probably have to find more background music too.

Anyways, thanks again!

For Klonoa, aerial side b creates a very comfortable wall that klonoa can either hide behind or chain a fair if the side b hits.

I noticed that too. Seems that Klanoa is definitely a contender for a high-tier spot (and even if he isn't, he is a favorite of mine)

After your praise of Klonoa I went and tried him out for a few games.

He's actually pretty good, yeah. Much better than I thought he was. Nair is a reliable tool with Uair and Dair being semi-unreliable staples. I believe his ring is the sweetspot but I'm not sure? Dair is a great spike when sweetspotted. His Uspecial is very punishable but he can act out of it. Fair has a YUGE hitbox with slow(ish) startup. His Dtilt is weird. His Uspecial on ground is interesting. I'm not feeling the Sspecial though, fairly large startup.

Maybe High B Tier. I had him second worst originally.

EDIT: After a little consultation with my tier list, I put him in mid C Tier. There are too many good characters in this game

EDIT: After further playtesting, Mid B.

I was thinking Upper-Mid to High tier for him myself. Depending on how many letters your list is, that sounds like where I would put him. There are SOOO many characters (and alot of them are great) so it is hard to get a concise list, and even then, a bottom tier could be the counter to a top tier (due to the huge list of characters)

Here's my current personal tier list for those interested:

Spoiler:

Does not include: IC, Mach, Snake, Bomberman, Tails, Knuckles, Megaman, and Wright because I have not played them enough.

I honestly believe that all these characters are viable in the current 'meta' all the way down to Olimar. Except Petey, because no one should play Petey.

Nix~ wrote:

Here's my current personal tier list for those interested:

Spoiler:

Does not include: IC, Mach, Snake, Bomberman, Tails, Knuckles, Megaman, and Wright because I have not played them enough.

I honestly believe that all these characters are viable in the current 'meta' all the way down to Olimar. Except Petey, because no one should play Petey.

"Goku in C and Bowser in F"

...Next video is gonna be good lmaoo

I'm not saying Bowser is bad....I'm just saying almost every other character is good.

Little Mac is the only character that's bad.

Nix~ wrote:

Little Mac is the only character that's bad.

As someone who loves Little Mac in Smash 4, I painfully agree

Edit: Also, you put Klanoa where I would expect. Maybe I'll try and see where I would put characters