Donbe And Hikari (Shin Onigashima) Discussion: Demon-Fighting Duo!

Moats wrote:

AmareTSM wrote:

We should really stop using words like "need" and "deserve" when vouching for characters unless they've had an impact on gaming or Smash Bros. as a whole.

Those words shouldn't be used in the first place. It simply resorts to people making up rules for what should be in a game they aren't even making and if it's not to their liking, it instantly sucks. Unlike this game, the official series could possibly get away with it.

I wouldn't say never, in certain situations, some characters really do need/deserve to be in, like Zelda. It made a lot more sense to say words like that leading up to a game like Brawl, because saying something Like "Sonic deserves to be in" makes sense. Saying Donbe And Hikari deserve to be in because they have a following makes no sense because there are hundreds of characters that have strong followings and much more to show for it.

It's still a fan game first and foremost. One could possibly, POSSIBLY, say "deserve"... but not "need". That includes Zelda.

Moats wrote:

Lego Shaq wrote:

If you seriously think they should be separated I'm not going to even honor that with a rebuttal

I seriously do and there's nothing wrong with that.

Except absolutely everything is wrong with that.
For many reasons even, but I will say only one reason for now. If we include either Donbe or Hikari, then the japanese fans will outrage about the lack of the other, and if we include both as seperate characters, then the japanese fans wil outrage about how Shin Onigashima has two reps, but some other japan-excluse franchise like Mysterious Murasame Castle or Famicom Detective Club doesn't.
In other words, if we seperate Donbe and Hikari, then we can only lose.

TrinitroMan wrote:

Except absolutely everything is wrong with that.

"Absolutely everything" huh?

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For many reasons even, but I will say only one reason for now. If we include either Donbe or Hikari, then the japanese fans will outrage about the lack of the other

I'm obviously not referring to either/or. But go ahead, give more reasons. Also, who is "we"?

Quote :

and if we include both as seperate characters, then the japanese fans wil outrage about how Shin Onigashima has two reps, but some other japan-excluse franchise like Mysterious Murasame Castle or Famicom Detective Club doesn't.

In what regard? Having Zero reps to their two? Pretty much the same as having one to their possible zero with all the Japanese only franchises out there that are still highly praised.

Or those series possibly only having one rep with their two?

SHIN ONIGASHIMA: 2

SUTTE HAKKUN: 1

PANEL DE PON: 1

LEGEND OF STARFY: 1 (I made this list a long time ago)

YUYUKI: 2

SOMA BRINGER: 1

KURU KURU KURURIN: 1

MYSTERIOUS MURASAME CASTLE (NAZO NO MURASAME-JO): 1

FOR THE FROG THE BELL TOLLS (Kaeru no Tame ni Kane wa Naru): 1

FAMICOM DETECTIVE CLUB: 2 (With one major face)

DAIGASSO! BAND BROTHERS (Jam with the Band in Europe): 1

JOY MECH FIGHT: 1

TOMATO ADVENTURE: 1

DEVIL WORLD: 2 (With one major face)

MAGICAL VACATION: 1

SHERIFF: 1

FAMICOM DISK SYSTEM: 1

GIFTPIA: 1

DOSHIN THE GIANT: 1 (Technically two, but they are the same being)

MARVELOUS ANOTHER TREASURE ISLAND: 3 (They actually make sense as a trio)

KIKI TRICK: 1

ANDO-KENSAKU: 1

CAPTAIN RAINBOW: 1

ARCHAIC SEALED HEAT: 1

TAKT OF MAGIC: 1

ZANGEKI NO REGINLEIV: 2 (Although one makes sense)

TAKT OF MAGIC: 1

POWER SOUKOBAN: 1

FAMICOM BUNKO: HAJIMARI NO MORI: 1

POWER LODE RUNNER: 1

MONSTER TACTICS: 1

CARD HERO: 1

SENNEN KAZOKU: 1

KURIKIN: NANO STORY ISLAND: 1 (Choose between boy or girl)

ZEKKYO SENSHI SAKEBUREIN: 5 (Now that is over board)

NINTENDOUJI: 1

ODAMA: 1

KOTO BATTLE: 1

METAL SLADER GLORY: 1

ARCANA: 1

JET IMPULSE:1

TIME TWIST: 1

PROJECT HACKER: 1

BS-X: THE STORY OF THE TOWN WHOSE NAME WAS STOLEN: 2 (Choose between boy or girl)

UKIUKI CARNIVAL: 2 (Choose between boy or girl)


Look at all those "ones". Now it's pretty freaking obvious not all of these characters will make it. Probably none of them. That can include either Donbe or Hikari.

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In other words, if we seperate Donbe and Hikari, then we can only lose.

You're going by fallacies, not what is and what isn't. If it's a problem to suggest, I repeat suggest this, someone that matters can just say no instead of someone coming up with some snarky response about how "ridiculous" it is.

Moats wrote:

It's still a fan game first and foremost. One could possibly, POSSIBLY, say "deserve"... but not "need". That includes Zelda.

I don't really know anything about these characters and have no input on whether or not they should be separated, but I'll have to disagree with this statement at least. A Smash fan game of THIS calibur most certainly does need Zelda. It's not like Super Smash Land or something where it's trying to get away with a roster of 5 characters with one that's 3rd party and one that's...Vaporeon. Oddball characters aside, Crusade is a much larger-scale fan game definitely aiming to have a large, more realistic Smash roster with much fewer restrictions on third party inclusions. Given her status as a major supporting character in one of Nintendo's most popular franchises of all time, calling Zelda a "nice to have" is kind of...ridiculous honestly. She's way too important a character for that.

Moats wrote:

Lego Shaq wrote:

If you seriously think they should be separated I'm not going to even honor that with a rebuttal

I seriously do and there's nothing wrong with that.

AmareTSM wrote:

We should really stop using words like "need" and "deserve" when vouching for characters unless they've had an impact on gaming or Smash Bros. as a whole.

Those words shouldn't be used in the first place. It simply resorts to people making up rules for what should be in a game they aren't even making and if it's not to their liking, it instantly sucks. Unlike this game, the official series could possibly get away with it.

I'm not entirely sure if there are literal "slots" in this game, which is why I suggested them to be separate. Especially with those movesets.

Ah yes, let's make these two characters which are unique due to fighting side-by-side ALWAYS and seperate them and ruin their charm and novelty.

Very smart decision right? Just erasing a character's uniqueness for no actual reason? There's a lot wrong with that lol but I'd love to know why you DESPERATELY want to make them less unique and truthful to their original appearances.

Seriously though, why is "Japan-only" a category that needs to be represented in the first place? It's not the same as saying "we should have a character that represents puzzle games", or racing games, or whatever; Japan-only games are usually just games that literally were not deemed important/appealing enough to bring over to the rest of the world. It's not like we don't have characters that originated in Japan, because MOST Smash characters did.

Just to clarify, I'm not against having a Japan-only character, but it shouldn't be because "adding some Japan-only characters could be a good idea."

And...not that I'm against this character idea (I have zero preference), but I also kiiiiiinda feel like we're all forgetting that Lucas is a Japan-only character too, so technically we've already got a rep for that anyway =p Sure, there's an unofficial fan-translation, but the keyword there is "unofficial," quality aside.
Marth and Roy were Japan-only characters too for a while, might I add. There's a good reason those two handsome fellas still only speak Japanese in Smash to this day (well...there's a reason, but whether it's a good one is debatable now that they've both appeared in at least one FE game that's been released in the west at this point...but I digress. As for why Cloud does it...not a clue).

Lego Shaq wrote:

If you seriously think they should be separated I'm not going to even honor that with a rebuttal

Support

Well, what do you think about my Moveset ideas?

Chaotic Chao wrote:

Snip.

I respect what you said here. But that doesn't really change my statement.

Lego Shaq wrote:

Ah yes, let's make these two characters which are unique due to fighting side-by-side ALWAYS and seperate them and ruin their charm and novelty.

Very smart decision right? Just erasing a character's uniqueness for no actual reason? There's a lot wrong with that lol but I'd love to know why you DESPERATELY want to make them less unique and truthful to their original appearances.

Did you play the games? Because I'm pretty sure in the first game, they separated mid-game. Hell, in the second game, Hikari doesn't appear until near the end. I know how the games work, I know how the characters work, and I know unique they can be solo. I don't care rather they'd be solo or a team if they did make it in, but I sure as hell am not going to be called out because of a suggestion and not do anything about it.

AmareTSM wrote:

Seriously though, why is "Japan-only" a category that needs to be represented in the first place? It's not the same as saying "we should have a character that represents puzzle games", or racing games, or whatever; Japan-only games are usually just games that literally were not deemed important/appealing enough to bring over to the rest of the world. It's not like we don't have characters that originated in Japan, because MOST Smash characters did.

Just to clarify, I'm not against having a Japan-only character, but it shouldn't be because "adding some Japan-only characters could be a good idea."

Actually, the idea of adding a character from a japan-only franchise came from trying to find a way to catter to the japanese fanbase.
Just wanted to let you know.

Moats wrote:

Chaotic Chao wrote:

Snip.

I respect what you said here. But that doesn't really change my statement.

Lego Shaq wrote:

Ah yes, let's make these two characters which are unique due to fighting side-by-side ALWAYS and seperate them and ruin their charm and novelty.

Very smart decision right? Just erasing a character's uniqueness for no actual reason? There's a lot wrong with that lol but I'd love to know why you DESPERATELY want to make them less unique and truthful to their original appearances.

Did you play the games? Because I'm pretty sure in the first game, they separated mid-game. Hell, in the second game, Hikari doesn't appear until near the end. I know how the games work, I know how the characters work, and I know unique they can be solo. I don't care rather they'd be solo or a team if they did make it in, but I sure as hell am not going to be called out because of a suggestion and not do anything about it.

And they can be even more unique together, still don't see your points here. I'm sure as hell not going to be accused of telling you not to do anything about me "calling you out".

Even more unique or just as unique. The exact same thing can also be said for them being solo. Regardless of what you see or don't see, I'm not here to convince you or anyone here of anything, but I know what I prefer, regardless of if it actually happens or not, and I'm standing by it.

AmareTSM wrote:

Seriously though, why is "Japan-only" a category that needs to be represented in the first place? It's not the same as saying "we should have a character that represents puzzle games", or racing games, or whatever; Japan-only games are usually just games that literally were not deemed important/appealing enough to bring over to the rest of the world. It's not like we don't have characters that originated in Japan, because MOST Smash characters did.

Just to clarify, I'm not against having a Japan-only character, but it shouldn't be because "adding some Japan-only characters could be a good idea."

There are often other reasons for not localizing games - in this case, because it was a text-heavy point-and-click adventure type game that would have been a huge effort to localize.

Also, as said, there are Japanese Smash fans and it would be cool to have some of them playing Crusade

Hope you don't mind me dropping in here and saying I'd support Donbe & Hikari becoming playable, would be a nice parallel to Ice Climbers as well if they were a duo.