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 Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested

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Nix~
Level 4 CPU


  Goku
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PostSubject: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:48 pm

Over on the Crusade discord PvP's pretty lit. Here's the rankings I came up with based on performance in online play that I've seen. Be advised that this is my opinion and I'm still not too sure about a few placements myself.

62 total HYPE!
S Tier - Amazing options and kill power. Most likely broken:
 

A Tier - Effective movesets and good matchups versus top tier characters:
 

B Tier - Still dangerous, but with less options and power:
 

C Tier - Mostly useless movesets with some good moves. May fulfill a specific niche:
 

D Tier - Easily kited or combo'd with little ability to fight back:
 

What do you guys think? I'll explain my reasoning for anyone who asks.


Last edited by Nix~ on Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:56 pm; edited 8 times in total
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:51 am

Well, I'll see how I agree with/reason out the characters I use (With Mains listed with "Main")


  • ROB-This Robot is a mix of his PM moveset and a newer moveset. It does work pretty nicely together. It(?) also feels more mobile compared to the main Smash games.
  • Mr. Game & Watch-I think it is safe to assume that the whole Crusade Team/playerbase think that G&W is pretty good.
  • Pichu "Main"-Dis Ain't Melee, Son. Pichu is SOOO much better here, though I myself wouldn't mind Melee Pichu if he actually had a mobility advantage compared to Pikachu. I can still see how he would end up lower though (Pitiful range, low weight, self-damage)
  • Phoenix Wright-Really? I'm surprised you put him so high, but I also haven't really had the time/people to test him out. I would love to hear why he is there (assuming you aren't including 9.1  DHD Laugh )
  • Klonoa "Main"-I was expecting him to be a little higher (Lower B by your standards), but I could see how he would end up in the tier set he is in (not the spot though). Mind if I ask why?
  • Krystal "Main"-I'll guess she is low because she has awkward Air attacks, sluggish ground attacks, and an over reliance on projectiles (Similar to Samus, but Samus has less sluggishness/awkwardness to her basic attacks....)
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Nix~
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:24 am

ROB is pretty good. His main pros are his ridiculous fair, multihit dsmash, uair, and projectiles. Great recovery and zoning abilities.

Mr. Game & Watch has fast moves with long hitboxes. His only real problems are that he's so light and his projectile isn't safe.

Pichu's good. He probably could sit higher, but I think his cons put him where he is. Usually Pikachu mains also play Pichu, and in my experience I've had a much harder time with pikachu than pichu.

Phoenix Wright is much better than most people realize. All his aerials are good (dair isn't that great, and that's if you tech). Fair is a semi-spike. Objection comes out fast, flips the target, makes side b hit harder, and resets charged projectiles. If you use objection on a Samus with full charge, the charge will go to zero. This, combined with down b, makes Wright one of the best anti-charged-projectile fighters. He does well against Samus, Lucario, Mewtwo, Knuckles, DK, and Snivy (maybe Ashley).

Klonoa could be higher. I really just haven't seen his full potential. He's where he is right now because of his ass recovery. I do think a lot of the characters above him are better than him.

I like playing Krystal but she really doesn't have much going for her. Too much lag makes it so you can't capitalize on projectiles at all. Dsmash is pretty cool though.
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:50 am

I think the problem people have with Phoenix Wright is his mobility (or lack there is). He is definitely better in the air than on the ground (though his up and down smashes are pretty quick all things considered). Objection also works well as a recovery stopper, just like the Cape. Nice to hear about the "Charge Reset" though. I myself was expecting him at/near the top of D.

From what I know with Klonoa, poor mobility, but great jump height. His forward and down tilts have good startup and lingering hitboxes (basically either at the end of the "roll" for the FTilt or when he hits the ground for DTilt), and the Down Tilt seems to be a semi-spike. Air attacks are awkward, with the only "normal" one being his NAir. Back Air has problems linking together, and the Down Air is more of a Forward Air. I think I have already said alot about his FAir though (Big hitbox, hits all around like Shulk's NAir, though it has startup lag and doesn't really launch on a good angle). Unlike every other character. his Pummel can only be used once before the enemy breaks out, though you can act quick enough to get a pummel and a throw. Only throw I have noticed that is good is his back throw, and that's for KOing (funny for a character that has a gimmick around "Air Throws"). NSpecial is situational, but it can be good for an low% KO if you can get an opponent near the edge or off stage, and could possibly be used to reverse-edge guard. Side Special is a projectile that isn't really good (Either too slow or takes to long to charge), though could be used in the air to edge-guard. Recovery is bad, but I believe it protects against projectile and does give good distance; if Klonoa could grab the edge while using it, I wouldn't have too much of a problem with it. Grounded Up Special is a reflector+Dash. Helps with the poor mobility, and cancels out projectile camping, but is predictable (similar to Clown Car Dash). I have not found any use for his Down Special other than to slow my decent; too slow on the ground to be practical. I am in agreement that most of the characters above him are better, but I would place him at mid-to-upper C; still a niche character, but almost not Wink 

Krystal was the first character I used, and her real only "good" moves are her NAir, DAir, DSmash, USmash, Side Special (same reason as why Link's Boomerang is good), and Recovery (while it isn't the best recovery move, it does have great power and invincibility frames. Good "Get off me" move). Otherwise, there isn't too much (very sluggish or short-ranged attacks everywhere else, can't act quick enough after projectiles, low weight?)

As for ROB, G&W, and Pichu, there isn't much to say
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Bedoop Bro
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  123

PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:42 pm

Rayman being S Tier is kinda unsettling considering he gets crippled when taken to Outer Space (I.E. he loses any and all access to one of his Specials, it was either Neutral or Side Special, I forget)
But other than that glaring counterpick flaw, I am satisfied with him being good
All we need is the 0.9.1 Globox Color.
(Also my man Gooey rockin' the Top o' the A-Tier, nice joberino)
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Nohrian Sadist



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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:45 pm

I've got a lot of problems with this, but let's start with the upper portion of the list.

G&W- I see no reason why this character shouldn't be S-tier. He has fairly good match-ups against the vast majority of the cast, insane kill power, and some of the best normals in the game. His recovery is solid and doesn't put him in helpless which gives him several ways to mix it up. His low traction gives him insane movement and allows for easy edge cancels on his aerials which already have virtually not lag. His hitboxes last essentially the entire duration of any given moves leaving little in the way of opening if you simply put out hitboxes toward your opponent. One top of all of this, he has one of the best out of shield games do simply to his up-b. It comes out extremely fast, can kill starting at around 135, and as stated before, doesn't put him in helpless making it hard to effectively punish. His main flaw would be his weight, and even that isn't too painful.

Lucario- Hard to place because he's super situational. He's a fairly average character in general. Decent normals and throws, a command grab, and charge projectile with an active hitbox on the charge, which are quite strong in this game. His main draw, however, is his aura. When he's at high percent, he goes from an average character to a 0-death machine, picking up stocks left and right starting at about 100%. The main problem with this is that lucario has one of the most exploitable recoveries in the game, allowing for easy gimps. Because of this, he never reaches his full potential, and remains a relatively mediocre jack-of-all-trades in a game of extremes. That being said he should be placed lower.

DK- Should be at the top of B-tier. Has guaranteed combos into kills out of jab, a decently out of a shield game, and kills at absurdly low percents. Jab-jab-nspec can kill sub 50 on the side of the stage, and jab-jab-utilt-uair can kill starting at around 60 depending on the stage. His grounded up-b is nigh-incontestable from the side, making it an effective out of shield option. His smash attacks can net kills at ridiculous percents with only a single read. Outside of these moves, he even has a kill throw, which while not as powerful as his other moves, can still steal stocks from the edges of some stages
.
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Bedoop Bro
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  Gooey
  123

PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:02 pm

Nohrian Sadist wrote:
G&W- I see no reason why this character shouldn't be S-tier. He has fairly good match-ups against the vast majority of the cast, insane kill power, and some of the best normals in the game. His recovery is solid and doesn't put him in helpless which gives him several ways to mix it up. His low traction gives him insane movement and allows for easy edge cancels on his aerials which already have virtually not lag. His hitboxes last essentially the entire duration of any given moves leaving little in the way of opening if you simply put out hitboxes toward your opponent. One top of all of this, he has one of the best out of shield games do simply to his up-b. It comes out extremely fast, can kill starting at around 135, and as stated before, doesn't put him in helpless making it hard to effectively punish. His main flaw would be his weight, and even that isn't too painful.
Y'know Gdubbs is screwed when someone with the role of "BALANCER" goes nuts on why G&W is S-Tier
Get hyped for nerfs

(Also, there's a Crusade Discord? Sign me the frick up, how do I get in)
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Nix~
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  Goku
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:17 pm

Bedoop Bro wrote:
Rayman being S Tier is kinda unsettling considering he gets crippled when taken to Outer Space (I.E. he loses any and all access to one of his Specials, it was either Neutral or Side Special, I forget)
I never noticed that before....Considering it's a coding error, I wouldn't let it affect the rankings.

Nohrian Sadist wrote:
I see no reason why this character shouldn't be S-tier.
When I place characters one of the biggest factors is of course, "Is this character better than the characters above it?" In G&W's case, I see two problems: ROB and Gooey, who both outspace him easily. Now, I could move all three to S-tier, but the characters in S-tier are IMO on another level. I see your point, though.

Nohrian Sadist wrote:
The main problem with this is that lucario has one of the most exploitable recoveries in the game, allowing for easy gimps. Because of this, he never reaches his full potential, and remains a relatively mediocre jack-of-all-trades in a game of extremes. That being said he should be placed lower.
Yeah, forgot about that recovery. Re-slotted.

Nohrian Sadist wrote:
Should be at the top of B-tier.
Holy shit guys fix jab.

With this in mind, tiers have been restructured a little.
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crazybark
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  41
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:54 pm

how are any of the street fighters less than A?
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Xalciss
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:36 am

lol Lucario is D rank at best, kill power is pathetic, needs to take damage to become strong, so playing evasively and competently is not rewarded, mediocre recovery, slow attacks and short range tilts, ABOMINABLE final smash, and meh travel speed. Also his uair is really finicky and difficult to aim, also not as speedy as Fox's uair.

I seem some other hiccups as well but this stood out to me the most

I would also put Pacman at a high-ish A rank position, his armor moves can be abused easily and gives him more mobility.

EDIT: Klonoa is a difficult character but his reward for playing patiently is very high, he has a lot of potential to control the pace of a battle, but when he loses momentum and allows the opponent to get up close, it is very, very hard to reverse the flow. That puts him at a lowish B rank imo.
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Nix~
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  Goku
  117
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:11 pm

crazybark wrote:
how are any of the street fighters less than A?
Seeing as you saw it fit to not give any reason as to why you think this should be true, I'm left to only give you my reasons.

Ryu and Evil Ryu play very differently, but I think they even out to around the same spot. Ryu plays a patient game, waiting for an opening then punishing with ridiculous cancel combos. He is much better in 9.1 due to the Focus Punch changes alone for this reason, but in 9.0 Focus Punch has less follow-up options that are also riskier. His main weaknesses are mobility, range, and an imperfect projectile.

Evil Ryu, due to his projectile being auto-cancellable, relies on it excessively. His ground attacks tend to send people into the air but a little too far away, so he doesn't really have much opportunity to follow up. However, he has some powerful kill combos that kill early.

Chun-Li is bad. I main the girl, I know, but it's sad. Her moves are slow. Focus attack is decent, but when that's one of your best opening options, that's not good. Sure, dair is interesting, but it really only leads to cool stuff at around 70%, no more, no less. She has some cool cancel combos and a good kill move in side b, but they're easily broken out of or avoided. Generally, most characters in the roster outclass her.

That being said, you're right, Ryu and E. Ryu were previously too low. I have moved them up to upper B tier.

Xalciss wrote:
Lucario is D rank at best
Lucario's dangerous even without taking damage. His aerials are all near-instant and end fast too. his ground game is great too: dthrow is a good combo starter, bthrow is a good finisher. Jab and dash attack are both good moves that lead into other moves, while ftilt is crazy powerful and fast. Dtilt is also fast and long ranged. His projectile is immaculate. Yes, his recovery is bad, but his kill power isn't too much of a problem in my eyes. You should have no trouble, in fact less trouble, racking up percent with combos when you yourself are at low percent. He's not worse than Pacman or DHD, don't be ridiculous. Final Smash is also not a factor in this list.

Xalciss wrote:
I would also put Pacman at a high-ish A rank position
Pacman's armor most certainly cannot be abused against a competent player. All his specials are slow, predictable, and highly punishable with patience. His true power lies in his air mobility and fast attacks, his aerials being the key, especially nair. I like him, I just don't think he has the power and most importantly the range of those above him.

Xalciss wrote:
Klonoa is a difficult character but his reward for playing patiently is very high"
I have to admit, I need to play more Klonoa. My main reasons for his current placement is his slow-ish moves, low combo potential, ridiculously punishable recovery, and bad projectile. He does have some interesting gimmicks (Ground slide attacks and air grapples), but they don't really lead anywhere. He definitely has potential, but I haven't seen it out of anyone yet.
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Xalciss
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:01 pm

I'm looking forward to battling you once the devs get a competent online mode sorted out Nix, you seem to know your stuff lol
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:03 am

From first hand experience, it is enjoyable to fight Nix, but I just love playing Smash with other people.
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Nix~
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  Goku
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:05 am

I really don't know what I'm doing. I try lol

So after practicing Klonoa for a while in order to beat w_t with his own character I realized he does have a lot of potential. TBH he's one of the more fun characters to play.

I'll switch up the list again.

(Moved Sonic down, DHD and Klonoa up, some other cleaning up)
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:40 am

Nix~ wrote:
TBH he's one of the more fun characters to play.
That's generally how I choose the characters I use. "Who's enjoyable for me to use and actually use effectively?"
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SS_Maeweather
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:44 am

Any reason Olimar is REALLY bad? I'm not saying he's really good but, the lowest? Also I never thought that Rayman would be S tier.
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:56 am

I've been messing around with Olimar, and it is mainly due to bugs than anything else if you ask me. That, and it seems that the general cast as a whole seem better suited to counter his standard approach
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SS_Maeweather
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:38 am

Thats fair, but how is Rayman S tier? scratch
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:52 am

I can't quite say enough (I don't use him myself), but his projectile is fast, powerful, and hard to reflect (if you do, it may start to fly back towards you). He also has some pretty good Damage-buildup moves, but this is only from what I have taken from fighting one
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Nix~
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  Goku
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:51 pm

Rayman has an insane kit of normals. All his tilts are extremely fast and juggle the opponent. His aerials are also fast and powerful, with fair and bair being lucario-esque fast moves, nair a frame-trap damage dealer, dair a good spike, uair a good juggler. All he lacks is a little bit of range.

Nspec is an ok projectile. It's basically a chargeable, faster, more powerful link boomerang. The main secret lies in the fact that he can release at any time with little lag. This way, he can charge and let go safely if he feels threatened, and now there's an extremely dangerous projectile out in the field. It's hard to play around.

Dspec kills extremely early at the cost of mobility.

On top of all that, he can float and djc. He also has a kill throw that kills extremely early (bthrow I think). He's pretty good.
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SS_Maeweather
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:28 pm

Shocked I never knew Rayman was THAT good. (mainly because I dont play him very offten) Could you explain how Waluigi is D tier? sorry if it seems like i'm kinda a noob but I havent really played in a while
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Nix~
Level 4 CPU


  Goku
  117
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:42 pm

Waluigi's got some good moves (Nair, Fsmash, Usmash, some tilts), but he's really lackluster in a lot of departments. All the characters above him are just better. He doesn't have a decent projectile, his recovery is slow and meh. Honestly, he could be higher, but no one really plays him.


Tier List Updated. A few people have been shuffled around, notably Puff (In light of some new tech), Luigi, Gooey, Samus, Ashley, Tails, Chun-Li, and Little Mac. As always, feedback is needed - I want to make this as accurate as possible, and I can do so with your input.
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Nohrian Sadist



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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:12 pm

I'd move Luigi above Lucario and Sonic. With double dashing he becomes the most mobile character by far. Not only this, but his options out of double dash lead to combos are kills pretty consistently.
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PostSubject: Re: Complete 9.0 Tier List: PvP Tested   Today at 8:13 am

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