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 Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?

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Jexulus
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PostSubject: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:34 pm

Let's get some fun theorycrafting going.

Something I always enjoyed doing for fun, when riding the hype train for Brawl/4 and then when they came out, was imagining/doing giant "theme" battles with computer characters. One such theme was filling out the battlefield with nothing but one franchise's characters. Not counting 8 Player Smash in the Wii U version, very few franchises have four or more characters to completely occupy the entire array of player slots. Mario, LoZ, and Pokemon are the only ones who can claim to occupy an entire battle with nothing but unique characters from their franchise in both games, with Fire Emblem joining their ranks in 4.

In Crusade, up to 6 characters can enter the fray at once. Thus far, only two franchises can occupy every spot: Mario, with a whopping 12 (14 with Dr. Mario and Weegee), and Pokemon, with 6 (counting Pichu). A lot of other franchises are close to 6, but don't quite hit that mark. It becomes a question of "does that franchise have enough relevant representatives that including more characters from it would add to the roster's quality, or would it dilute its quality?"

So, which one franchise's set of reps would you want to see expanded to a "full" 6 characters to completely dominate the landscape of a fight, who would those characters be, and why?
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:08 pm

This is less of "Which ones I would like" as much as "Which ones can." With that out of the way, here are my thoughts on the different franchises' chance (If you are wondering, I am counting Alternate Characters as a single character):

Mario-They are already at the magic "THAT'S TOO MANY" number, though we could still add a few.
Donkey Kong-We are still missing Diddy, but I don't think we can get to 6 here. I can see it going up to 4 right now, with Diddy, Dixie, and King K Rool
Yoshi-Surprisingly, I think that the Yoshi series has some potential for 6, with Yarn Yoshi, Poochi, Kamek, the Baby Bros, and Baby Bowser (though the last 3 could be considered Mario characters, so...)
Wario-I think Wario is pretty well represented in terms of characters, though a PM-Based Wario would be a nice addition
Pokemon-Still a few that could be added
Metroid-Its pretty much filled out. Not many characters in its series
Legend of Zelda-Since we still don't have Zelda or Sheik, it can easily be bumped up to seven, though there are still other characters that could be added, like Tetra or Medli (just to list a few)
Fire Emblem-Including all Smash Characters (Roy, Ike, Robin, Lucina, and Corrin), we have 6, though there are still a few out there
Star Fox-Other than Wolf, the Star Fox universe has pretty much all of its iconic characters represented
F-Zero-While it doesn't necessarily need a second or third representative, It could go up to 3, with Blood Falcon taking Ganon's spot as the "Heavy but Slow" Falcon, and Black Shadow
Kirby-I could see it go to 6, with King Dedede, Bandana Waddle Dee, and Adeline being the final 3 for it
Mother/Earthbound-Much like Star Fox, the Mother series is pretty much full, though Ninten would probably be the 4th rep for it
Duck Hunt/Punch Out!!-These 2 could only really get their Smash 4 iterations as second reps.
Sonic-It can easily get up to seven, with Robot Sonic, Eggman, and Amy
Rayman-Only thing that comes to mind are the Rabbids
Crash Bandicoot-The only other character I could see from here is Dr. Cortex
Mega-Man-I could see it going up to at least 3, using Mega Man X and Zero as 2 added representatives
Street Fighter-There is SO much untapped potential for Street Fighter to get up to 6 using iconic characters like M Bison, Zangief, and Guile, and that is to list a few
Super Smash Brothers-While there are not any characters as of now, it is possible for it to go up to five or six, using the different Mii Fighters (Brawler, Sword Fighter, and Gunner), 2 new "Classes" (Mage and Athlete, who uses items from the various "Mii" games), and the Primid, but that is just an idea

As for series not yet represented, I have these:
Resident Evil-I could see 3 or 4 characters, with those being Jill, Wesker, Chris, and Leon, though Chris and Leon could be up to debate
Castlevania-I can think of 2 representatives. They are Simon Belmont (or one of the Belmonts) and Alucard, though there may be others I don't know of.
Freedom Planet-I can only think of 3 characters that would work for this series, and that is the 3 (currently) playable characters (Lilac, Carol, and Milla), though it could theoretically go up to 6, with Spade, Torque, and Serpentine.

For the rest of the series I left out, there isn't really anyone else I can think of that could work well (though that might be because I lack the experience of them). If I can think of any other characters or potential new series represented, I will let you know


Last edited by wheeled_tank on Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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TaXMaN
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:28 am

I think LoZ is the only series that should get 6+ character reps. Honestly, I'd rather see more franchises represented than more reps added to ones already represented.
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TrinitroMan
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:10 am

wheeled_tank wrote:

Freedom Planet-I can only think of 3 characters that would work for this series, and that is the 3 playable characters (Lilac, Carol, and Milla), but that is really it
Torque & Spade, though.
Both of them were playable in early betas, and Torque is already in the current private backer beta and close to completition. Besides, what Crusade could really need is a character inspired off Gunstar Heroes.
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:20 am

Well, if I would choose a forth, it would be Serpentine due to Torque not being in the second game and Spade currently not being playable in the first game nor being playable (as of now) in the second game. It wouldn't be too hard to think that the weapons Torque has could be used (and exist for) by Serpentine. It could be argued that those 3 could work, but Spade is not currently playable (I haven't found the early beta with Spade either), so we can't pull much for him, and Torque/Serpentine would probably be clones of eachother (though they would still be interesting as Megaman-esque characters)

Also, the Torque Beta isn't exclusive (as far as I've seen) if you own the Steam Version. That being said, I updated my selections
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Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:41 am

We could theoretically get to 6 reps for most of our franchises. DK has had plenty of kongs, Rayman has 4 playable characters and could get villains, Crash has plenty of characters playable in spin-offs, Mother has all of the party members, Star Fox still doesn't have the rest of both teams, Wario doesn't have anything from Wario Land and there's still more WarioWare potential, etc. I'm not really sure about Metroid (Anthony? Adam? Little Kraid? SA-X?), but again, most franchises have potential.

Now, what would I want to see get a full set of reps? Zelda and Fire Emblem for sure.. don't know what else. I'd really like a lot of 1-offs instead (particularly from things like Professor Layton, SMT, Playstation franchises like Sly / Jak, etc).
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TrinitroMan
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:28 pm

wheeled_tank wrote:
Also, the Torque Beta isn't exclusive (as far as I've seen) if you own the Steam Version.
I own the Steam version and even updated it, but I still cannot select Torque in the character select of the regular version, and I definitely do not have a beta version of Freedom Planet. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? scratch
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:35 pm

You have to right-click the game in the steam library, go to properties, and go to "Beta." The pull-down tab should have a section called "beta-for testing new builds". After the small update, you will be able to use Torque, but only in Time Attack (and some levels will be blocked, and I am think you need to beat the main game with 2 characters before he is available). To revert it to the original mode, do the same thing, but change the "Beta" setting to "NONE - Opt out of all Beta Programs."
Spoiler:
 
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thebuddyadrian
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:51 pm

Famicom (Characters that only had games on the famicom/nes)
-Duck Hunt Dog (Already in)
-Ice Climbers (Already in)
-Urban Champion
-Excitebiker
-Balloon Fighter
(I know thats five but i cant think of another one)
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:55 pm

There is also Mach Rider and Takamaru, so technically, the NES/Famicom representatives as a group can have 6+. If alternate fighting styles count, we could still get Duck Hunt (Duo) from SSB4
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:54 am

IMO, out of franchises that haven't reached that number, only LoZ really needs that many reps and it will get those once Zelda and Sheik are back. Sure, there are few other franchises like Fire Emblem (Sm4sh already has 6 and there are more than enough characters without swords in FE games) and Street Fighter (which has various characters with different movesets from SF2 updates and even more after they stopped making those) who have enough characters to have at least 6 reps, but they don't need that many. Before thinking of "can you do it?", you need to think of "should you do it?". Roster is already too big for its own good and having even more characters to make and balance doesn't sounds good.
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:59 am

I've been thinking, and I've came to think that Fire Emblem should be up to 5 (6 if you manage to declone Lucina) and LoZ to 6 (or 7. I wouldn't mind if Sheik didn't make it). That being said, I just wanted to list out which series could realistically theoretically get 6, not the ones that necessarily should.
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Jexulus
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:15 am

Jexulus wrote:
It becomes a question of "does that franchise have enough relevant representatives that including more characters from it would add to the roster's quality, or would it dilute its quality?"

Ridori wrote:
Before thinking of "can you do it?", you need to think of "should you do it?". Roster is already too big for its own good and having even more characters to make and balance doesn't sounds good.
Don't worry, that was always a concern at the forefront of making the topic. There are plenty of franchises that COULD make it to 6+ reps, but with a Smash roster of any size, overrepresentation could dilute the integrity of the roster's balance.

That being said, there are really only two franchises, in my opinion, that could pull off getting to the full six reps without going into "over saturation" territory. The Legend of Zelda is the first one; since it doesn't have Zelda or Sheik yet and they're more or less a sure thing in the distant future, given their veteran status.

The second one is the Sonic franchise, given their giant cast of memorable characters and the franchise's reputation as a rival to the Mario franchise. Even if we limited the choice in characters to ones that appeared in Sonic Battle, the game that Crusade gets its sprites from/based on, we'd still have a host of characters to choose from. Amy is the most well-known Sonic character not currently in Crusade, and would stand out from the rest of the Sonic characters with her emphasis on hammer attacks.

Rep #6 is less obvious; I personally don't think Eggman has ever piloted a device that could be considered a "fighter." Even if he were given the Bowser Jr. treatment and piloted the Egg-o-Matic to battle, I don't remember any cases where it wasn't something he sat in to pilot another mech (besides the ball and chain fight from Sonic 1). If having a villain from the series is important, Chaos is a viable choice; he has Sonic Battle sprites, and he's the only other viable main antagonist due to memorability and iconic status. And even besides him, there's characters like Blaze, Silver, Rouge, E-102 Gamma, E-123 Omega, and Cream that could all make a case for being #6 (but obviously not all of them at once).

The one I'd personally want to see is the Mega Man franchise, even though it would be really difficult to include that many without escaping that sense of over saturation. I don't ever expect it to happen because the series has fallen out of the public consciousness in recent years (besides Classic and maybe X). Otherwise, I'd be seriously campaigning for X, Zero, MegaMan.EXE, and Star Force Mega Man. Oh, and uh, *grumble grumble* Volnutt.
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:02 pm

wheeled_tank wrote:
There is also Mach Rider and Takamaru, so technically, the NES/Famicom representatives as a group can have 6+. If alternate fighting styles count, we could still get Duck Hunt (Duo) from SSB4
Okay Then, the full list is
-Duck Hunt Dog*
-Ice Climbers*
-Mach Rider*
-R.O.B.(?)*
-Urban Champion
-Excitebiker
-Balloon Fighter
-Takamaru

*Already in
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Would love to see see 6 Kirby reps.
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thebuddyadrian
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:22 pm

Sir Kibble for Crusade
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Kirb-Star
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:05 pm

Better have King Dedede, Bandana Dee, Adeleine and/or Dark Matter in here.
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TrinitroMan
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:06 am

Jexulus wrote:

The second one is the Sonic franchise, given their giant cast of memorable characters and the franchise's reputation as a rival to the Mario franchise.  Even if we limited the choice in characters to ones that appeared in Sonic Battle, the game that Crusade gets its sprites from/based on, we'd still have a host of characters to choose from.  Amy is the most well-known Sonic character not currently in Crusade, and would stand out from the rest of the Sonic characters with her emphasis on hammer attacks.

Rep #6 is less obvious; I personally don't think Eggman has ever piloted a device that could be considered a "fighter."  Even if he were given the Bowser Jr. treatment and piloted the Egg-o-Matic to battle, I don't remember any cases where it wasn't something he sat in to pilot another mech (besides the ball and chain fight from Sonic 1).  If having a villain from the series is important, Chaos is a viable choice; he has Sonic Battle sprites, and he's the only other viable main antagonist due to memorability and iconic status.  And even besides him, there's characters like Blaze, Silver, Rouge, E-102 Gamma, E-123 Omega, and Cream that could all make a case for being #6 (but obviously not all of them at once).

First, it's called the "Egg Mobile", not the "Egg-o-Matic".
Also, you mention cases for #6, yet you completely forgot Metal Sonic? He's a viable villian choice, too, especially since that's the only creation of Dr. Eggman that gave Sonic a hard time in the canon.
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:21 am

Jexulus wrote:

Rep #6 is less obvious; I personally don't think Eggman has ever piloted a device that could be considered a "fighter."  Even if he were given the Bowser Jr. treatment and piloted the Egg-o-Matic to battle, I don't remember any cases where it wasn't something he sat in to pilot another mech (besides the ball and chain fight from Sonic 1).  If having a villain from the series is important, Chaos is a viable choice; he has Sonic Battle sprites, and he's the only other viable main antagonist due to memorability and iconic status.  And even besides him, there's characters like Blaze, Silver, Rouge, E-102 Gamma, E-123 Omega, and Cream that could all make a case for being #6 (but obviously not all of them at once.

Disregarding sprites, Eggman piloted a machine designed specifically for fistfighting in Sonic the Fighters, so that first point is untrue if we're considering all of his appearances. But even if that weren't the case, there isn't a single Sonic character in this list that deserves to be in more than the series's most major villain. Hell, I'd say that Shadow doesn't even deserve to be in as much, though that's heavily debatable.

Taking sprites into consideration, however, Eggman would indeed be a bit of a difficult case, as you're right about him not piloting anything that would really make sense in battle in any games where sprites are used as graphics (even in Sonic Battle, Eggman was just a boss with like four sprites who just launched a bunch of bombs and missiles everywhere). But still: he's Dr. Eggman, one of the franchise's most important characters, so I feel like something should be figured out anyway because he should obviously be included if the series were to get six reps.

Personally, I think Sonic deserves six reps and I think Amy should be the fifth with Eggman the sixth. I wouldn't mind Metal being an alt of Sonic either. As for any other franchises...aside from Zelda obviously (which should honestly have even more than 6), I think the Megaman series deserves six in the vein of Sonic deserving it since it's Capcom's mascot series (well...it was before Capcom decided Street Fighter was more important, anyway), it's really popular, and there are a ton of characters to choose from (and many of said characters appear frequently in crossover games). If it were up to me, I'd go with:
-Megaman (possibly X or Volnutt as an alt)
-Zero
-Roll
-Tron Bonne
-Dr. Wily
-I don't play a ton of Megaman so I'm not sure who the sixth would be (maybe Protoman or X as a separate character, I dunno), but definitely those five first.

Last but not least, debatable as it may be whether or not this franchise deserves six reps, Fire Emblem could pull off having even more than that easily with veterans alone. If it were up to me:
-Marth
-Ike
-Robin
-Corrin
-Sigurd (I may make a thread for this guy if someone else doesn't do it first)
-Either Lyn (she's got a pretty good moveset in Project M's current Community Complete version) or Roy, or both if seven's allowed

That's about it though...I don't really think any other franchise should get six reps, or at least, I don't think we should prioritize it. Almost any franchise can get six reps if we want to go that far, and I'd love to see that happen a long way down the line. That said, I'd love to see SEGA as a whole get six reps since we have Ristar already. Assuming he never gets axed I'd probably go with:
-Ristar
-Arle
-NiGHTS
-Beat
-Joe Musashi
-Some Shining Force rep (a TON of possibilities here and you can bet your ass I'll suggest someone from this series someday soon)
-Bayonetta (if Ristar DOES go though I think Bayonetta would be a good character to replace him with...assuming six is the strict limit, of course; I've brought this up before but, if characters aren't getting removed, then I think it's best we disregard oddball characters or unusual reps [Weegee, Ristar, Snivy] when suggesting new ones)
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:33 am

I count alternates as standard characters (Zelda and Sheik were considered different characters in Melee after all), so keep that in mind.

I agree that Sonic, LoZ, and Fire Emblem should go up to at least 6 (Zelda is pretty much guaranteed), possibly even up to 8 in some cases.

Eggman and Amy would definitely be my choices for Non-Alternate characters, with Metal Sonic being an added alt, considering the size and popularity of the series (SEGA's answer to Mario)

I feel that, while Mega-Man is/was Capcom's big series, I think that it falls in a similar spot as Metroid; it doesn't need a large amount of characters to fully represent it. Zero, X (as a Mega Man alt), and Wily would probably be the 3 I would choose to add. I think Street Fighter would be a better choice if you wanted a Capcom game to have 6+ representatives.

I personally like Roy, and would like to see him added, but I also haven't really played any Fire Emblem (Only through the tutorial of Radiant Dawn), so I can't say too much on who to choose. Ike, Robin, and Lyn seem to be recurring when it comes to who to choose though.

If the new devs were going to cut characters, WeeGee and Goku would already be gone, so I think Ristar is safe.
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:57 am

I was thinking Street Fighter might be a good choice over Megaman if not that, yeah. It's kind of tough to say which six I'd choose from that, especially with the game's most recent release, but I'd probably go with:
-Ryu (Evil Ryu alt)
-Chun-li
-Guile
-Dictator
-Alex
-Karin
They may the the most well-known characters but, I don't think it's a good idea to have too many World Warriors in the roster, so I limited it to just two more, Guile and Dictator. Alex is really popular among the series's fans the protagonist of the SF III series, so I chose him for fifth (plus he'd be a grappler type which is rare in Smash, and which is also why I went with Guile over Zangief). The sixth is highly debatable, but because of her extremely high popularity (especially in Japan and even in the west) and her recent SFV appearance I chose Karin, as sort of the darkhorse. Cammy could be a good alternative to her though I suppose, despite being another World Warrior...or better yet, Juri to represent SFIV.
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:17 pm

where's Zangief and M. Bison

The most iconic SF characters that aren't Ryu or Chun-Li

EDIT: Didn't know that Dictator was M. Bison. My bad
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:08 pm

I went with Alex instead because he's SF3's protagonist and also a grappler, which means better representation across the series besides just SF2.
If I were to break the six character cap, I would go with that roster above, plus Zangief and Juri.
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:13 pm

But Zangief and Juri are more well known. I mean, we never got a playable gen 3 or gen 5 Pokemon in official Smash, instead we got more of the more well known Pokemon and the most well known from the most recent game.
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:43 pm

Pong

...think about it
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:08 pm

SP wrote:
Pong

...think about it
Left Paddle
Right Paddle
Divider
Left Score
Right Score
Playing Field

?
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SP



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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:20 pm

Roy wrote:
SP wrote:
Pong

...think about it
Left Paddle
Right Paddle
Divider
Left Score
Right Score
Playing Field

?

this guy thought about it and knows whats up
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:24 pm

OmegaSteve777 wrote:
But Zangief and Juri are more well known. I mean, we never got a playable gen 3 or gen 5 Pokemon in official Smash, instead we got more of the more well known Pokemon and the most well known from the most recent game.
That may be so, but that doesn't mean it was the best thing to do. As much as I love Jigglypuff, I can't say I'd whine too much if she were replaced with a Gen 3 or 5 Pokemon. Or, just add them both...not like Pokemon with its immense popularity and gigantic number of viable characters can be over-represented easily. Street Fighter's the same way, really, since every single character it has is a fighter with a potential Smash moveset and the series is incredibly important to Capcom. It's another one of those franchises that hurts from the six character limit since there are so many options. Why only have Zangief and leave both SF3 AND 4 in the dust? Or only have Juri and leave out an iconic character and not represent 3 at all? Or only have Alex and etc...?
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:19 am

Chaotic Chao wrote:
OmegaSteve777 wrote:
But Zangief and Juri are more well known. I mean, we never got a playable gen 3 or gen 5 Pokemon in official Smash, instead we got more of the more well known Pokemon and the most well known from the most recent game.
That may be so, but that doesn't mean it was the best thing to do. As much as I love Jigglypuff, I can't say I'd whine too much if she were replaced with a Gen 3 or 5 Pokemon. Or, just add them both...not like Pokemon with its immense popularity and gigantic number of viable characters can be over-represented easily. Street Fighter's the same way, really, since every single character it has is a fighter with a potential Smash moveset and the series is incredibly important to Capcom. It's another one of those franchises that hurts from the six character limit since there are so many options. Why only have Zangief and leave both SF3 AND 4 in the dust? Or only have Juri and leave out an iconic character and not represent 3 at all? Or only have Alex and etc...?

Mostly because if we are really going to have that many Street Fighter reps, it should be the ones most everyone should recognize. Smash Bros. is a game where Nintendo's most well known characters come and duke it out. There are a few non-Nintendo characters, but those should be only the most well known. Such as Sonic and Mega Man. Ryu and Chun-Li fit because even people who don't play SF know who those are.
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TaXMaN
Level 6 CPU


  Pac-Man
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:06 am

SP wrote:
Roy wrote:
SP wrote:
Pong

...think about it
Left Paddle
Right Paddle
Divider
Left Score
Right Score
Playing Field

?

this guy thought about it and knows whats up

I'd take Ball over Left Score.
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PostSubject: Re: Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?   Today at 4:23 am

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Which other franchise would you want to see with a "full" 6 reps?
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