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 Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.

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Mellon
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PostSubject: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:01 am

WARNING: THIS WILL INCLUDE SPOILERS SINCE GROVYLE IS A MAJOR CHARACTER IN THE GAME POKEMON MYSTERY DUNGEON: EXPLORERS OF TIME/SKY/DARKNESS.

also pls note that this was written a long time ago and is probably pretty dated and stuff so dont judge. also please ignore the percentages for me wont you <3 //Mellon in 2016

INTRODUCTION
Grovyle is, debatably, the most loved character in the PMD series and debuted in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Darkness/Time, and was later given his own special episode in Explorers of Sky, which was basically the expanded version of Time/Darkness. He is most known for his twist antihero reveal and tragic goodbye near the end of the game, and he is one of the most powerful Pokémon in the series. A Dusknoir, his horde of Sableye and even a corrupted version of Dialga himself all worked together to stop this lone warrior, only to finally have him dive bomb back into the future with Dusknoir, leaving it up to the player and his partner to save the world. He's one of the coolest, memorable and badass characters from PMD, hell, the Pokémon series in general, and would be a fun addition to the roster. But in case you need more proof, here's what Bulbapedia wrote about him.
Bulbapedia wrote:
Grovyle is a powerful and skilled warrior. He's also willing to do anything to alter the dark future in which he lived, even if it meant dying himself or outright killing others, as he nearly killed Azelf and the partner when they stood between him and a Time Gear.
If that's not badass, I don't know what is.

APPEARANCES
Every Pokémon game since Ruby/Sapphire (2002/2003): Not a character, just a regular Pokémon
Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time/Darkness (2007/2008): Turned into a major character.
Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Sky (2009): Gave Grovyle a Special Episode focusing mostly on him.
Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon (2015): I haven't played this game yet so idk really BUT DON'T SPOIL IT FOR ME


PROS&CONS
PRO: He's from Generation 3, which just got a remake!
PRO: He represents what is (Or...was...) probably the best Pokemon spinoff series ever made.
PRO: Since he's an actual character and not a random Pokémon, there are some creative things you can do with his moveset
CON: GOD. DAMN. SNIVY.
CON: Too much Pokémon 7.8/10
CON: The Mystery Dungeon series haven't been represented at all in Smash before. Not even trophies.
CON: (Something extremely dated about a Mystery Dungeon game that ended up being average at best)

IN CRUSADE
I imagine Grovyle as a high risk-high reward character, with some incredible pros but just as incredible cons. He should be a midweight, faster than Charizard but slower than Pikachu. He should also be able to dish out some good damage, but have a hard time launching foes far. Without further ado, here is my moveset!

MOVESET

A attacks

AAA: A quick one-two jab with Grovyle's elbow blades. The first hit deals 5% damage and knocks lighter characters out of the combo, but the second hit deals 7% damage with medium knockback. Medium end lag.

Side tilt: Out of all things, Grovyle preforms a headbutt that deals 5% damage and has more that average knockback. Big end lag.

Down tilt: Grovyle moves his headleaf from left to right while crouching, which deals 4% damage and is ridiculously fast, both at the start and end. Barely has any knockback.

Dash attack: Grovyle rolls up in a ball, then curls up and slashes in front of him with both of his elbow blades, Greninja-Up-smash style. The roll hits rapidly, for a maximum of 6% damage, and the finishing cross-slash deals 8%. Has medium end and start lag.

Aerials

Nair: Grovyle crosses his arms as all five Time Gears appear from behind his back and start circling around him. Lasts for a long while and can trap opponents, but has very poor knockback. Can deal 15% damage, but one hit only deals 3%.

Fair: Grovyle uses Bullet Seed right in front of him for five quick multiple hits, like Sheik's needles bur aimed straight forward with barely any range. All hits combined deal about 11% damage. You might be thinking "But Grovyle never uses Bullet Seed in the games!" Not in the games, no, but in the special anime episode Beyond Time&Darkness Grovyle actually uses Bullet Seed in one of the scenes! Sure it might not be entirely canon, but it's a small part of his moveset anyway so who cares

Bair: Grovyle holds an orb in his hands behind him, not unlike Lucario's Aura sphere. This is inspired by Energy Ball, which Grovyle also uses in the special anime episode from earlier. However, he doesn't shoot the orb like a projectile, and instead disappears with a small explosion that has moderate knockback. Lasts for about 2 seconds, and can deal 20% damage at most, however this almost never happens.

Dair: For this move, Grovyle shoots a stream of seeds downwards, like the Mii Gunner's Up Air but downwards. The last bullet can spike, however. Deals 15% damage and has medium start and end lag.

Uair: Grovyle grabs one of the Time Gears and swipes above him. At about halfway through the animation, the Time Gear shines slightly which is a powerful sweetspot. Deals 9% damage with decent knockback, and 20% damage if it sweetspots, with Knee of Justice levels of knockback.

SMASHES

Forward Smash: Grovyle stands still for a brief moment, then lunges forward in the blink of an eye and moves backwards just as fast. Based around the A-attack animation for every Pokémon in PMD. Deals 25% damage fully charged and 18% at least. Has incredible knockback to boot, but unfortunate start-and end lag.

Down Smash: Like in one of his cutscene moments of fame, Grovyle throws a Luminous orb downwards and creates sparks next to him, which deal 30% damage if fully charged and 23% damage at it's weakest. Pathetic knockback, and high starting lag. Medium end lag, however.

Up Smash: Grovyle ducks and a Dimensional hole appears above him. Then, the Shiny Celebi appears from the Dimensional hole and uses a Psychic attack above him. Deals 22%-27% damage and has decent knockback.

SPECIALS

Neutral B: Absorb. Grovyle shoots out a tiny needle a short range forward, which then drains the target's hp instantly, unlike Snivy's Down B (GET RID OF SNIVY) with yellow orbs, like the PMD series. Deals 15% damage and heals 9% damage. No starting lag, medium end lag. Pathetic knockback.

Side B: Leaf Blade. No no no, this isn't a copy-paste of the jab. It's more like Kirby's hammer. Grovyle slashes with his elbow blade forward, and then with his second elbow blade right afterwards, like Kirby's hammer in the air. Deals 8% damage on the first hit and 10% on the second hit, with excellent knockback but long ending lag.

Down B: Dig. Grovyle hops up in the air very slightly and then burrows underground. The hop at the start has a hitbox that links it with the burrowing hitbox, much like Bowser's Down B. The hop deals 3% damage and the burrow deals 18%, with great launching power. When Grovyle is underground after the attack, he's invulnerable until he pops up with a press of the B button. The popping up deals 10% damage with mediocre knockback, and also has a ton of endlag. If this move is used while airborne, Grovyle will hop slightly in the air before drilling downwards like Corrin's down air, dragging foes down with him. The tiny hop won't stop Grovyle's forward momentum so it can be used for recovery mixups. If Grovyle hits the ground while using the move in the air, he won't drill underground upon landing. It still has a ton of landing lag, however.

Up B: Quick attack. Like his Side Smash, Grovyle stands in place and then, in the blink of an eye, moves forward in a tackle-like pose, and back again. Deals 10% damage with moderate knockback. The second phase of this move is cancelled if A: Grovyle grabs onto a ledge B: The target is hit or C: Someone hits Grovyle during the first phase. During the standing still phase, you'll be able to choose what direction to travel in. The move barely has any endlag.

Grabs&Throws

Grab: Grovyle simply grabs the target.
Pummel: His headleaf slashes the foe from behind. Very similar to Meta Knights pummel.

Forward Throw: After pretending to release the target, Grovyle cross-slashes the target with Leaf Blade. Deals 12%, the most damage of all the throws, and has decent knockback.

Back Throw: Basically just Kirby's back throw. Same damage, knockback and everything.

Down Throw: Grovyle slams the target down onto the ground, jumps, then lets the five Time Gears pummel the foe for 10% damage. Sends the foe in an angle similar to Bowser's Down Throw, which means no good combo setups here.

Up Throw: Grovyle throws the target up into the air and, like with his Up Smash, Celebi appears from a Dimensional Hole and uses Magical Leaf to damage the opponent. A very good killmove, and deals 9% damage.

FINAL SMASH
Dusknoir appears on the battlefield with his legion of Sableye, and they all start to chase down all fighters, like Dedede's old Final smash. Dusknoir himself deals more damage than the rest (15%) and can freeze opponents with his Ice Punch. The Sableye deal 7% damage and attack with Sucker Punch, which has good range. Lasts for about 10 seconds, and Grovyle is invulnerable and uncontrollable during this period.

OTHERS
Entrance: Grovyle jumps out from a Dimensional hole.
Taunt: Grovyle holds 2 Time gears in a pose like when Greninja counters in SSB4, which gives off a shining sound effect.
Series Icon: Time Gear.
Crouch: Grovyle sort-of stands on all fours, like Yoshi's crouch.
Victory Theme:
From 00:45 to 00:51
Victory Pose: Grovyle looks into the camera covered in darkness like in this
Spoiler:
 
picture, then lightning flashes and he turns back into normal.

My current, 11PM self counted up to 6 supports! Let me know if I should go back to school or not.


Last edited by Mellon on Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:20 am; edited 12 times in total (Reason for editing : Changed some aerials)
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Spoon300
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:28 pm

Praise Melon!
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Dry



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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:35 pm

Haha this is interesting.

I think to make it clear that this is PMD Grovyle, and not just some random Grovyle from the main games, there could be more reference to the PMD character in the moveset.

It's been a very long time since I've played the game, but I can remember two moments of classic Grovyle badass: one when he takes out the entire team of Sableye with a flash bomb, and of course when he pushes Dusknoir back into the dark land. I think both of those should somehow be part of his moveset; throwing an item (I think it was some kind of orb) that stuns people, and one where he dives forward, and, if he connects, both go barrelling down towards the blastline.
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:37 pm

Link's Forward is the same in Crusade as it is in the main games (excluding Smash 64). While the nod to the Mystery Dungeon series is nice with the Final Smashes, I just don't think they fit Grovyle well.
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:48 am

Lots of people are requesting Sceptile to join in SSB4. We don't need another grass type Pokémon, because we already got Snivy. Maybe a Fire and Water type Pokémon can join Crusade to complete the weakness cycle. Oh yeah, i'm new to this forum.
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Dry



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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:15 am

Well, that's true if Grovyle just got in as a random Pokemon, but this suggestion is for the character Grovyle, from PMD2. That's why I think the final smash ideas are great, and why I think there should be more reference to his cutscene moments, since those define the character Grovyle and differentiate him from the species. Welcome, btw.
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:47 am

Just don't go spamming the board with too many suggestions all willy-nilly, My championship Belt of 'Most Character Suggestions' and low Lifebar is a testiment to that. Also, treat the mods with respect... I sure didn't... Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:55 am

Spoon300 wrote:
Just don't go spamming the board with too many suggestions all willy-nilly, My championship Belt of 'Most Character Suggestions' and low Lifebar is a testiment to that. Also, treat the mods with respect... I sure didn't... Sad

This guy knows what's up.
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:03 am

Unfortunately Grovyle and Snivy are both grass-type lizard-like Pokemon. What's our Pokemon rep count? 6 including Pichu? I think we might have capacity for a new type of Pokemon but not another grass-type. Charizard would be pretty cool, or heck, Greninja, since they are distinct from the others. Just my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:16 am

Falcon8r wrote:
Unfortunately Grovyle and Snivy are both grass-type lizard-like Pokemon. What's our Pokemon rep count? 6 including Pichu? I think we might have capacity for a new type of Pokemon but not another grass-type. Charizard would be pretty cool, or heck, Greninja, since they are distinct from the others. Just my opinion.

Oh, that's right, Charlizard and Greninja are absent from Crusade, that's a shame... Y'know, somebody should get on that and cook up a thread for both of em.
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:58 am

Spoon300 wrote:
Falcon8r wrote:
Unfortunately Grovyle and Snivy are both grass-type lizard-like Pokemon. What's our Pokemon rep count? 6 including Pichu? I think we might have capacity for a new type of Pokemon but not another grass-type. Charizard would be pretty cool, or heck, Greninja, since they are distinct from the others. Just my opinion.

Oh, that's right, Charlizard and Greninja are absent from Crusade, that's a shame... Y'know, somebody should get on that and cook up a thread for both of em.
Yes, we know you're still banned. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:52 pm

Charizard and/or Greninja will be cool additions.
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Mellon
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:42 am

Falcon8r wrote:
Unfortunately Grovyle and Snivy are both grass-type lizard-like Pokemon. What's our Pokemon rep count? 6 including Pichu? I think we might have capacity for a new type of Pokemon but not another grass-type. Charizard would be pretty cool, or heck, Greninja, since they are distinct from the others. Just my opinion.
Yeah, that's true...I just thought he'd be a cool addition to the roster. If some other Pokémon were to join, I'd want it to be Zoroark, but that's a topic for another post. Also, same type additions never stopped anyone... *cough* Pichu *cough*

Hell, since Pichu and Pikachu are in, Wynaut Raichu? albino
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Mellon
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:44 am

Dry wrote:
Haha this is interesting.

I think to make it clear that this is PMD Grovyle, and not just some random Grovyle from the main games, there could be more reference to the PMD character in the moveset.

It's been a very long time since I've played the game, but I can remember two moments of classic Grovyle badass: one when he takes out the entire team of Sableye with a flash bomb, and of course when he pushes Dusknoir back into the dark land. I think both of those should somehow be part of his moveset; throwing an item (I think it was some kind of orb) that stuns people, and one where he dives forward, and, if he connects, both go barrelling down towards the blastline.

Woah, I didn't even think of those! Now THAT could be his final smash: Throwing a Luminous Orb (PMD's flash bomb) down on the ground, making everyone on the ground confused for a while. I imagine this working kind of like Peach's Final Smash, only that it:

1: Confuses the foes instead of putting them to sleep
2: Doesn't summon healing items
3: Lasts longer

This Stun Orb could also be a Smash attack, maybe his side smash, but I don't see that working very well. Having it on his Specials is out of the question, since Specials are the Pokémon's moves by tradition. If they were to change this, I imagine this being his Side Special and Leaf Blade becoming his Side smash.

Of course, there's also the "Pushing Dusknoir into the Dimensional Hole" move. You had a nice idea there, it reminded me of Little Mac's Leaping Haymaker or whatever it's called. This could (Or rather, should) become his Dash attack, where he leaps forward and grabs a target in front of him, then falls down to the ground (Or off-screen :O) with the target below him. *Cough* Bowser's Side B *Cough*

OR, this could be one of his throws. I actually forgot to write about them earlier, so why not? Maybe this could be his forward "throw", in which Grovyle jumps forward along with the grabbed target and they both take 15% damage. Maybe also a back throw, where he does the same thing but throws the foe backwards during the leap. Here, only the foe should take damage.

Adding a Dimensional hole in some move is also possible, but I think that would be a bit too much. I think that's all I've got for now.
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Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:48 am

I always figured if there was a 'Hoenn Trainer', it would follow the same pattern as the Brawl Trainer simply because Mudkip is too popular and Grovyle is one of the main characters in PMD2.

Unfortunately, even though Grovyle probably deserves a spot, we instead got Snivy. It doesn't feel right to include 2 grass starters separately unless they were overly popular (say one was Charizard) or didn't take up individual slots (trainer or alts). They're even both fast grass starters. You are making him unique though by implementing PMD2 stuff though, so that's a definite plus.

I'd prefer simply swapping Snivy with Grovyle, but that's not possible. So... yeah.
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Mellon
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:10 am

Roy wrote:
I always figured if there was a 'Hoenn Trainer', it would follow the same pattern as the Brawl Trainer simply because Mudkip is too popular and Grovyle is one of the main characters in PMD2.

Unfortunately, even though Grovyle probably deserves a spot, we instead got Snivy. It doesn't feel right to include 2 grass starters separately unless they were overly popular (say one was Charizard) or didn't take up individual slots (trainer or alts). They're even both fast grass starters. You are making him unique though by implementing PMD2 stuff though, so that's a definite plus.

I'd prefer simply swapping Snivy with Grovyle, but that's not possible. So... yeah.

It's a shame. Crying or Very sad Oh well, the dream lives on...if they added a Fire and Water starter instead, I think those would be Charizard (Obvz) or Blaziken if they have the time, and perhaps Frogadier? I don't know, but I've got to say, I'm astonished they picked Snivy over Oshawott. Nice work, guys! But what about Tepig Sad
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Mellon
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Sun May 17, 2015 5:53 am

I like bumping and changing movesets
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:06 am

Support Grovyle It's my second favorite pokemon in gen 3
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:44 pm

Heh, con against joining is Snivy, says main is Snivy. I am confuse.

Anyway, as far as what I have seen...yes and yes. I did read on despite the spoilers and my having not played the game ever (because I'll likely never get to play it... Sad ) but I did thoroughly enjoy what part of Red Rescue Team I have actually gotten to play so far, and the moveset here is just...well, very well thought out! Kudos!

Well, I'll stop wasting your time and end this off with a Support.
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:12 pm

Don't think we need 2 grass types

No thx
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:00 pm

i support he is awesome and i played PMD2!
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:47 am

I'm glad people are noticing this thread, and I know that I'm getting a lot of mixed opinions. I just want to clarify that this isn't just the Pokemon Grovyle, but the Character Grovyle. Hence, he would have his own series logo much like Wario, Yoshi and Tingle. This makes the "We already have two grass types" argument a bit less valid in my eyes.

(dated stuff about me hating snivy even though I somehow was able to main her idk how but I did)


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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:23 pm

I support, since I really like the game he was in, and that he is a cool character.
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:13 pm

Pokemon Mystery Dungeon getting it's own franchise?
And then Grovyle being the representative?

Is it just me, or is there something completely wrong there.
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:41 am

OmegaSteve777 wrote:
Pokemon Mystery Dungeon getting it's own franchise?
And then Grovyle being the representative?

Is it just me, or is there something completely wrong there.

I think it's just you, considering he played a highly pivotal story role in his own game.  I don't think many other PMD characters can quite say that.
That being said, Gengar is quite the guy in Red/Blue Rescue Team, but I think Grovyle is a bit more of a better option.
Thoughmaybeimjustbiasedbecauseihappentolikegrovyleasapokemoningeneral-*cough, cough*
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OmegaSteve777
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:22 pm

I just think that PMD shouldn't get it's own franchise, it still has Pokemon in the name unlike Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Wario, or Tingle.
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:41 am

Support. Now that Super Mystery Dungeon is out, do you think emeras could be included in the moveset somehow? Maybe they spawn randomly as items even if items are off, and though no one else can use them Grovyle's down special allows him to equip them when nearby for temporary buffs.
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:12 am

Support! Oh I love Sky, and I still haven't beaten it sadly, mostly though, but I loved it thoroughly so I support!
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:59 pm

Kzinssie wrote:
Support. Now that Super Mystery Dungeon is out, do you think emeras could be included in the moveset somehow? Maybe they spawn randomly as items even if items are off, and though no one else can use them Grovyle's down special allows him to equip them when nearby for temporary buffs.
I...haven't really played Super. I've updated the original post just a tiny bit to make that clear. I know that he is in it, somehow, (DONT SPOIL) but I think he should represent his game of origin rather than take stuff from Super. AUGH I NEED TO PLAY THAT GAME SOON
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Mellon
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PostSubject: Re: Grovyle (Pokémon Mystery Dungeon 2) Discussion: "The sun never rises.   Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:01 am

Dig has been completely reworked. I'm still on these forums believe it or not.
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