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Smash King
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PostSubject: Samus Aran Discussion    Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:34 pm


Discuss, share opinions, ideas, etc. about Samus Aran.
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Shiruza
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:44 pm

So Samus can jump infinitely in her home series. I saw a Brawl hack before that made Samus faster and gave her four total jumps (excluding the Screw Attack). It balanced this out by making Samus much heavier, and nerfing the vertical movement of the Screw Attack in the air.

This allowed Samus a much greater air-to-ground combo game, as well as making her more canonically accurate. With a decrease in endlag along with attack speed, I think this will make Samus a much more fun character to play as. And it would be an easy change as well; no extra sprites or attacks needed!
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:55 pm

I agree. This change could help differentiate Crusade Samus from the Official Samus.
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Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:00 pm

In the Prime series, Samus could only do one midair jump, yet multiple screw attacks. In the 2D games, space jump combined with the screw attack for multiple screw attacks.

Maybe instead allow multiple up specials, which can be cancelled mid-move into another aerial?
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Shiruza
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:35 pm

Roy wrote:
In the Prime series, Samus could only do one midair jump, yet multiple screw attacks. In the 2D games, space jump combined with the screw attack for multiple screw attacks.

Maybe instead allow multiple up specials, which can be cancelled mid-move into another aerial?

That would just be awkward to fight out of. The reason for the way it is in the Prime series is because of how the Screw Attack is almost always obtained after the Space Jump (unless you are god-like in your speedrunning tactics), so players often overlapped them. It is however possible to only use the Space Jump without the Screw Attack; in fact, in Super Metroid you'll be using it without the Screw Attack long before you do it with. So it's still canonical.

The reason why I insist on multiple jumps as opposed to multiple Screw Attacks is from practice. I myself have based my own Samus canon-based hack on this one, and I can confirm that the additional jumps add a new dimension to her gameplay. If you add a hitbox and execution lag to those jumps (ie, multiple Screw Attacks), then you have to put up with the opponent getting knocked out of your path before you can continue your combo, and the ability is frankly useless if you can't combo with it (especially if you nerf recovery for balance).

With the multiple, shorter jumps, you can control your air game better, close in gaps, deal with aerial opponents, easily transfer from air-to-ground and ground-to-air, and so on. But add in a hitbox and additional frames for attack (as opposed to the nigh-instantaneous execution of a quick jump or short hop), and you sacrifice all of that. Not to mention to additional input an U-Spec requires as opposed to the ease of simply tapping Up/Jump, however minor the difference may be.

In short, multiple jumps with one Screw Attack is both practical and canonically-based as opposed to just canonically-based, which I personally believe is a much better package overall.

I do like your idea of the cancelling, but from experience I can confirm that it would be a much better practice to simply keep it to the non-Screw Attack'd Space Jumps. It's simply much faster and more intuitive.

If you'd like, I could link the hack to you for you to try out. Or I could give my own version which adds a few other things that I was going to bring up as well.
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Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:16 pm

I guess that's fine. I don't really mind either way... I should leave this up to the Samus fans.
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Shiruza
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:26 pm

Roy wrote:
I guess that's fine. I don't really mind either way... I should leave this up to the Samus fans.

It was a good point to raise, though, so thank you for helping discussion. ^_^
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Mellon
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:24 am

Picked up Samus after finally getting my poopy PC to work and yeah, she's a very fun character and I understand why people think she's a high tier. She feels a bit more like Samus should, but I feel like some attacks should be changed to move further away from Smash 64's limitations.

Crouch Attack should be changed to the Power Bomb to line up with her new Roll, and she should get a new Down B altogether. If we change it to something that would only work on the ground, we would still be able to use the Power Bomb in the air and keep beloved techs like Bomb Hopping in the game. Since I'm not the biggest Metroid fan though, I don't know what to put here.

Her old Down Tilt should then be moved to her Down Smash, where it would work like Mewtwo's Down Smash but with barely any startup. We don't even have to turn it into a killmove, just make it a bit stronger and add the ability to charge it and you're all set.

Finally, her Side Smash makes no sense to me. If a Side Smash is supposed to be the character's strongest attack, how come it's just a punch? My idea was to have a multi-hit move, where in the first hit Samus would freeze her foe solid with the Ice Beam before blasting them off with the Plasma beam, which is said to be "The most powerful beam in Samus's arsenal". In Metroid Prime, the Plasma Beam could also be combined with Missiles to become the Flamethrower, which we could also use in this attack. My idea was that the Plasma Beam would turn into the Flamethrower if Samus's Neutral B is fully charged, which would not only increase the damage and range but also add another layer of strategy to  
Samus's playstyle since using this Side Smash would also use up her Charge Shot.

If we want to use all three of her "Elemental Beams" from Metroid Prime, we would also have to shove the Wave Beam in there somewhere...hmm...

Aaaaaand finally, about the discussion above me talking about how Samus should have multiple jumps...no thanks. I mean, Falco is a bird yet he has just as many jumps as, say, Little Mac. I've always prioritized series representation way over competitive viability and this is no exception, however I would like to see multiple Screw Attacks be added. Sonic has a custom move in Smash 4 that lets him use three separate springs with shorter hops instead of a single one with a big hop and I feel like this new Screw attack would function in a similar fashion. It may be a bit clunky but it would feel a lot more natural than just having her space jump all over the place even though she could only do it once in the air in her original games.
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Shiruza
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:11 pm

Mellon wrote:
Picked up Samus after finally getting my poopy PC to work and yeah, she's a very fun character and I understand why people think she's a high tier. She feels a bit more like Samus should, but I feel like some attacks should be changed to move further away from Smash 64's limitations.

Crouch Attack should be changed to the Power Bomb to line up with her new Roll, and she should get a new Down B altogether. If we change it to something that would only work on the ground, we would still be able to use the Power Bomb in the air and keep beloved techs like Bomb Hopping in the game. Since I'm not the biggest Metroid fan though, I don't know what to put here.

Her old Down Tilt should then be moved to her Down Smash, where it would work like Mewtwo's Down Smash but with barely any startup. We don't even have to turn it into a killmove, just make it a bit stronger and add the ability to charge it and you're all set.

Finally, her Side Smash makes no sense to me. If a Side Smash is supposed to be the character's strongest attack, how come it's just a punch? My idea was to have a multi-hit move, where in the first hit Samus would freeze her foe solid with the Ice Beam before blasting them off with the Plasma beam, which is said to be "The most powerful beam in Samus's arsenal". In Metroid Prime, the Plasma Beam could also be combined with Missiles to become the Flamethrower, which we could also use in this attack. My idea was that the Plasma Beam would turn into the Flamethrower if Samus's Neutral B is fully charged, which would not only increase the damage and range but also add another layer of strategy to  
Samus's playstyle since using this Side Smash would also use up her Charge Shot.

If we want to use all three of her "Elemental Beams" from Metroid Prime, we would also have to shove the Wave Beam in there somewhere...hmm...

Aaaaaand finally, about the discussion above me talking about how Samus should have multiple jumps...no thanks. I mean, Falco is a bird yet he has just as many jumps as, say, Little Mac. I've always prioritized series representation way over competitive viability and this is no exception, however I would like to see multiple Screw Attacks be added. Sonic has a custom move in Smash 4 that lets him use three separate springs with shorter hops instead of a single one with a big hop and I feel like this new Screw attack would function in a similar fashion. It may be a bit clunky but it would feel a lot more natural than just having her space jump all over the place even though she could only do it once in the air in her original games.

1) I agree completely on that D-Spec idea. Perhaps the Beam Switching from Project M? It wouldn't be too much, just make F-Smash, F-Air and U-Smash turn into kill moves. Perhaps you could even go a step further and makes N-Spec into a projectile version of PK Freeze (in that it deals less damage and knockback, but freezes). Hey, maybe even add in the Wave Beam, where it has even less damage and knockback than the ice beam while stunning opponents, like ZSS's paralyzer? That would certainly add a much more equipped dynamic to her otherwise standard moveset, giving her a fresh set of options unique to Crusade that no other Smash game has. And it would be in agreement with cannon, while still require little to no animation changes!

2) I'm... Not so sure on this idea to be honest. Add an explosion to her cannon instead (as seen in Smash 4 or PM). That way, it could take better advantage of the beam switching mechanic from before, require absolutely no new animations in comparison to a brand new set of them, and overall would be much easier to code and simpler to use.

3) Don't knock it till you try it. There's a mod out there if you need it; it's balanced out with shorter jumps and heavier gravity. Basically, the total vertical distance gained is the same that Samus's usual jump would give her with only two jumps, but now she has much better control of her aerial game. If everyone absolutely *hates* this idea for whatever reason, I'm willing to settle with the multiple Screw Attacks... But only if they can be canceled into normal attacks. I'm not giving up the improved air game, here.
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:26 pm

I would like some beam switching. And Ice mode. The switching beams could affect her missiles as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:30 pm

(Unrelated idea I just came up with; During Dash Attack have her shine blue, to reference the Shinespark.)
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:33 pm

^ That'll be cool
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:06 am

Braystar wrote:
I would like some beam switching. And Ice mode. The switching beams could affect her missiles as well.
We already got that in PM and I want this Samus to just have the attacks in her regular moveset like Mega Man

Shiruza wrote:
(Unrelated idea I just came up with; During Dash Attack have her shine blue, to reference the Shinespark.)
How has this not been done yet
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:40 am

@Mellon Not like change every attack into an Ice version, just the normal and side
specials
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:35 am

Mellon wrote:
Braystar wrote:
I would like some beam switching. And Ice mode. The switching beams could affect her missiles as well.
We already got that in PM and I want this Samus to just have the attacks in her regular moveset like Mega Man

Well in that case, I really can't think of a better D-Spec other than the bomb drop. Besides; all that will change is the effect of her attacks, nothing else. This won't be a Zelda/Sheik or PKMN Trainer thing, it'll just be her shooting a different effect out of her cannon.

Another idea, though this might be OP at this point; Power Bombs! Take your N-Spec charge, use D-Spec, and bam, you get a more powerful morph ball bomb.
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:09 am

Shiruza wrote:
Mellon wrote:
Braystar wrote:
I would like some beam switching. And Ice mode. The switching beams could affect her missiles as well.
We already got that in PM and I want this Samus to just have the attacks in her regular moveset like Mega Man

Well in that case, I really can't think of a better D-Spec other than the bomb drop. Besides; all that will change is the effect of her attacks, nothing else. This won't be a Zelda/Sheik or PKMN Trainer thing, it'll just be her shooting a different effect out of her cannon.

Another idea, though this might be OP at this point; Power Bombs! Take your N-Spec charge, use D-Spec, and bam, you get a more powerful morph ball bomb.
I don't think Beam Switching is as big of Metroid's gameplay as, say, the arts in Xenoblade. I want Samus to stay gimmick-less forever.

Buuuuuut you do have a point...there really aren't too many options for Down Specials. Fine, I guess we can have the beam switching in there somewhere

Oh here's an idea; Using Down Special would turn her grab/Zair into either the Flamethrower, Ice Beam or Waveburst for a single use. The flamethrower would have the shortest range but be a killmove in the air, the Ice Beam would be a long ranged yet pretty slow projectile that freezes opponents and the Waveburst would have amazing range but have a lot of endlag. Using Down Special again would revert back to her regular Zair, which should have better startup and endlag than the others. I guess you could use Taunt to shift between the three elements or just mash Down Special to scroll like with Shulk's Arts.
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:42 pm

Mellon wrote:
Shiruza wrote:
Mellon wrote:
Braystar wrote:
I would like some beam switching. And Ice mode. The switching beams could affect her missiles as well.
We already got that in PM and I want this Samus to just have the attacks in her regular moveset like Mega Man

Well in that case, I really can't think of a better D-Spec other than the bomb drop. Besides; all that will change is the effect of her attacks, nothing else. This won't be a Zelda/Sheik or PKMN Trainer thing, it'll just be her shooting a different effect out of her cannon.

Another idea, though this might be OP at this point; Power Bombs! Take your N-Spec charge, use D-Spec, and bam, you get a more powerful morph ball bomb.
I don't think Beam Switching is as big of Metroid's gameplay as, say, the arts in Xenoblade. I want Samus to stay gimmick-less forever.

Buuuuuut you do have a point...there really aren't too many options for Down Specials. Fine, I guess we can have the beam switching in there somewhere

Oh here's an idea; Using Down Special would turn her grab/Zair into either the Flamethrower, Ice Beam or Waveburst for a single use. The flamethrower would have the shortest range but be a killmove in the air, the Ice Beam would be a long ranged yet pretty slow projectile that freezes opponents and the Waveburst would have amazing range but have a lot of endlag. Using Down Special again would revert back to her regular Zair, which should have better startup and endlag than the others. I guess you could use Taunt to shift between the three elements or just mash Down Special to scroll like with Shulk's Arts.

See, I get what you're saying about the gimmick-less thing. Keep her simple, not too overblown. However, beam switching is actually incredibly integral to the Metroid series, especially in Prime where different beams affect different enemies to varying degrees of effectiveness. I also see where you're going with the grab idea, but... At the same time, you sacrifice one of her grabs. If we're really going to be swapping out one of her attacks for a one-time use, it'd be better to replace N-Spec, since that actually is her using her beam.

I see that you don't like gimmicks, but this isn't that big of a deal; it's just adding a dimension to her gameplay, as PM did. Plasma (fire) = Damage racking. Ice = Killing blows. Wave = Trapping for combos. Her moveset wouldn't change at all, just the effects of her blast-based attacks (D-tilt (which in this case would be D-Smash), F-Smash, U-Smash, and F-Air; four attacks total, which isn't that much).

Personally I think that you don't have much to worry about when it comes to the gimmick-y-ness of the beam switching; The only true changes are done to four attacks, and they're all changes in hit effects and explosion graphics, not much else. Certainly more intuitive than, say, removing her grab for a one-time-use beam attack (again, that'd be much better over N-Spec).

(Also, if the Morph Ball Bomb thing doesn't pan out, then it could be placed over her taunt since that's quick enough to not be odd to switch with.)
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:31 pm

Shiruza wrote:
Mellon wrote:
Shiruza wrote:
Mellon wrote:
Braystar wrote:
I would like some beam switching. And Ice mode. The switching beams could affect her missiles as well.
We already got that in PM and I want this Samus to just have the attacks in her regular moveset like Mega Man

Well in that case, I really can't think of a better D-Spec other than the bomb drop. Besides; all that will change is the effect of her attacks, nothing else. This won't be a Zelda/Sheik or PKMN Trainer thing, it'll just be her shooting a different effect out of her cannon.

Another idea, though this might be OP at this point; Power Bombs! Take your N-Spec charge, use D-Spec, and bam, you get a more powerful morph ball bomb.
I don't think Beam Switching is as big of Metroid's gameplay as, say, the arts in Xenoblade. I want Samus to stay gimmick-less forever.

Buuuuuut you do have a point...there really aren't too many options for Down Specials. Fine, I guess we can have the beam switching in there somewhere

Oh here's an idea; Using Down Special would turn her grab/Zair into either the Flamethrower, Ice Beam or Waveburst for a single use. The flamethrower would have the shortest range but be a killmove in the air, the Ice Beam would be a long ranged yet pretty slow projectile that freezes opponents and the Waveburst would have amazing range but have a lot of endlag. Using Down Special again would revert back to her regular Zair, which should have better startup and endlag than the others. I guess you could use Taunt to shift between the three elements or just mash Down Special to scroll like with Shulk's Arts.

See, I get what you're saying about the gimmick-less thing. Keep her simple, not too overblown. However, beam switching is actually incredibly integral to the Metroid series, especially in Prime where different beams affect different enemies to varying degrees of effectiveness. I also see where you're going with the grab idea, but... At the same time, you sacrifice one of her grabs. If we're really going to be swapping out one of her attacks for a one-time use, it'd be better to replace N-Spec, since that actually is her using her beam.

I see that you don't like gimmicks, but this isn't that big of a deal; it's just adding a dimension to her gameplay, as PM did. Plasma (fire) = Damage racking. Ice = Killing blows. Wave = Trapping for combos. Her moveset wouldn't change at all, just the effects of her blast-based attacks (D-tilt (which in this case would be D-Smash), F-Smash, U-Smash, and F-Air; four attacks total, which isn't that much).

Personally I think that you don't have much to worry about when it comes to the gimmick-y-ness of the beam switching; The only true changes are done to four attacks, and they're all changes in hit effects and explosion graphics, not much else. Certainly more intuitive than, say, removing her grab for a one-time-use beam attack (again, that'd be much better over N-Spec).

(Also, if the Morph Ball Bomb thing doesn't pan out, then it could be placed over her taunt since that's quick enough to not be odd to switch with.)
Actually her Fsmash is still just a damn punch in this game but I get what you're saying. You have convinced me, Samus would work this way. I just wonder if we should make her similar to PM Samus or have our own Samus...
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PostSubject: Re: Samus Aran Discussion    Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:44 am

Mellon wrote:

Actually her Fsmash is still just a damn punch in this game but I get what you're saying. You have convinced me, Samus would work this way. I just wonder if we should make her similar to PM Samus or have our own Samus...

I'm aware, yes, that's something that should be changed to a blast like PM/SSB4. No questions asked, it's a no-brainer.

I don't think that we should go too far. SSBC Samus with beam switching is good enough. As in PM, Ice Beam would be good for finishes, but it probably wouldn't be a sword-like slash like in PM, to keep the animation changes to a minimum.
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