Bowser Discussion

Discuss, share opinions, ideas, etc. about Bowser.

Dude, is it just me or it Bowser's Up B on the ground crazy-powerful?  It's a good OOS option and gets him KO's at 75-80% on most characters. Not only is it a really fast KO move, but he can also retreat to make it safer. I think having a high base KB for it makes sense so that it can't be punished on hit, but couldn't we back the scaling just enough to where it isn't the only KO move Bowser needs? If it were to KO around 110-120%, that would make a lot of sense given the move's other benefits.

Giga Bowser can KO Ristar at around 10% with his grounded Up B, by the way. I was kinda shocked. In case you're wondering, I played several matches where I intentionally abused Up B. I think I got at least 4 3-stocks out of like 7 matches. Now, I know real people aren't going to fall for this tactic (at least not all the time), but in a clutch moment if you pull out the Up B, it could pay off way more than it should.

Other than that, I find Bowser pretty awesome to play as, but I just feel kinda cheap for using him at the moment.

I'm pretty sure most human players would chase you and get an easy punish if you miss with up B. Those who can't, probably have projectiles, like Petey and Snake. Those who STILL can't, are either terribly unbalanced or have insane attributes elsewhere, like DK's combo and kill power.

Having said that, maybe it could be weakened. 5 frames is pretty fast.

I can weaken up b and down b, but it really wont be by a lot. 110% for example is too low for Bowser's intended kill power. You have to keep in mind that for a human player, dashing around Bowser's moves and getting a free 0-death on any of his whiffs is extremely easy.

Perfect Hell wrote:

I can weaken up b and down b, but it really wont be by a lot.  110% for example is too low for Bowser's intended kill power.  You have to keep in mind that for a human player, dashing around Bowser's moves and getting a free 0-death on any of his whiffs is extremely easy.

What exactly do you mean, "intended kill power"? I know you have to look at character's moves in the context of the character and not in a vacuum, but a 5-frame move that hits all around Bowser and KO's at below 80% is a bit much. Doesn't Bowser have ample KO power outside of it anyway? His Ftilt, Side B, Down B, Uair, Back Throw, and Smashes are all effective KO moves (except for the random one-hit Up Smashes that only do like 6%). Besides, what you're implying is that Bowser should be able to KO from any situation, provided the damage given is high enough.

Maybe some of his other moves could be tweaked to compensate? One idea I thought would make a lot of sense is to make forward throw have 45-degree knockback and some combo potential, such as into Fair/dash Utilt. Another one is that maybe Down Smash should suck opponents in a bit better. I don't think I've landed a single Down Smash in an actual fight yet.

I don't want to waste anyone's time talking about this because I know there's most likely a good reason why his Up B is the way it is. I'm just saying that when you look at other characters' vertical KO options, Bowser's Up B is kind of outrageous in comparison.

Is Giga Bowser having its own victory animation intentional?

EDIT: Is making a giga bowser for each color swap possible?

So, I recently found out all of Bowser's KO Power on FD.
The test was on Mario, always from center stage in order to make it a fair test.
There was no DI, so percentages may vary due to stage position, or DI.

Jab - N/A (first hit has set KB, so will not kill at all), 170% (second hit)
FTilt - 170%
UTilt - 130%
DTilt - 207% (first hit), 168% (second hit)
Dash Attack - 145%
FSmash - 35% (uncharged) 29% (fully charged)
USmash - 79% (uncharged) 41% (fully charged). Assume both hits connect.
DSmash - 69% (uncharged) 41% (fully charged). Assume all hits connect.
Nair - 147%
Fair - 125%
Bair - 148%
Uair - 54%
Dair - 170% (Meteor) 410% (All hits on the ground)
FThrow - 129%
BThrow - 210%
UThrow - N/A. Up Throw will not KO as the weaker hits will not link into the strong hit.
DThrow - 184%
NSpec - 464%
SSpec (Klaw) - 107%
SSpecFThrow - 469%
SSpecBThrow - 83%
USpec (Strong hit) - 74%
USpec (Weak hits) - 354%
DSpec - 55%

Kill power will vary between characters due to weight, and falling speed.

I will be updating this with further notes on Bowser.

CSWooly wrote:

FSmash - 35% (uncharged) 29% (fully charged)

This seems really low, even for Bowser. Was the attack powerful enough to KO Mario off the upper or side blastlines, or just enough to knock Mario off the stage? If you have the character set to do nothing, it will obviously die at lower percentages because it won't try to recover.

CSWooly wrote:

UThrow - N/A. Up Throw will not KO as the weaker hits will not link into the strong hit.

Are you saying the last hit of Up Throw misses altogether?

nowaitstop wrote:

This seems really low, even for Bowser. Was the attack powerful enough to KO Mario off the upper or side blastlines, or just enough to knock Mario off the stage? If you have the character set to do nothing, it will obviously die at lower percentages because it won't try to recover.

All of them were set measured from the lowest percentage that will allow them to KO from the blastlines. Bowser's FSmash once OHKO'd at the very edge. They are the bare minimum percentages that will KO the character off the blastlines.

I'd rather have done your method, but that would have been inaccurate, simply because all of Dair's hits would have been written at around 300.

Falcon8r wrote:

CSWooly wrote:

UThrow - N/A. Up Throw will not KO as the weaker hits will not link into the strong hit.

Are you saying the last hit of Up Throw misses altogether?

Yeah.
The first hit of Up-Throw will push the opponent far enough above Bowser that the other hits won't connect. This may kill at 999% on Qbert, but I haven't tested it. If your opponent had Doom SDI and SDI'd into all the hits, it would probably KO past 500%, however, I don't so I couldn't test this extensively.

A similar thing can happen in the main games, where if you use Mega Man's Final Smash (SSB4) when the opponent is at really high percents, (over 300), the weak hit that's designed to keep them in the Final Smash can actually knock them out of the Final Smash.

Unrelated, but Bowser has super armor whilst charging smash attacks. Up to what damage does that armor protect from?

Slissith wrote:

Unrelated, but Bowser has super armor whilst charging smash attacks. Up to what damage does that armor protect from?

I'm about to look at that next, however my Hamachi is playing up, and I'll have to free up keyboard space to include a second player. I'll probably look at that using Mario's smashes.

As for data on all the other characters, I won't be able to do this in time for 0.9.1 as Mario took me two days of what time I had, and I don't think I can actually do all of them before 0.9.1 is released.

So when is Giga Bowser going to have proper Giga Bowser sprites?
And when is Bowser going to get his Smash 4 victory theme for further differentiation?

Bowser smash attacks have super armor, meaning there is no amount of damage that can break it. It activates a few frames before the hitbox and deactivates a few frames after the hitbox disappears, for around 10 total armor frames on average.

Perfect Hell wrote:

Bowser smash attacks have super armor, meaning there is no amount of damage that can break it.  It activates a few  frames before the hitbox and deactivates a few frames after the hitbox disappears, for around 10 total armor frames on average.

I could be wrong, but doesn't super armour have some limit. I mean Ike's Aether Super Armour in Brawl kinda wears off at about 200% or so.
I'm not sure what it's like here, but I'm pretty sure in the main games, super armour has somekmd of damage limit before it "breaks"

CSWooly wrote:

Perfect Hell wrote:

Bowser smash attacks have super armor, meaning there is no amount of damage that can break it.  It activates a few  frames before the hitbox and deactivates a few frames after the hitbox disappears, for around 10 total armor frames on average.

I could be wrong, but doesn't super armour have some limit. I mean Ike's Aether Super Armour in Brawl kinda wears off at about 200% or so.
I'm not sure what it's like here, but I'm pretty sure in the main games, super armour has somekmd of damage limit before it "breaks"

Super armor in smash would normally break based on knock back, which is why in melee yoshi can't jump through moves at later percents. However I don't know if this is the case for Crusade.

You can make Bowser just like ssb4? http://www.ssbwiki.com/Bowser_(SSB4)

Nara wrote:

You can make Bowser just like ssb4? http://www.ssbwiki.com/Bowser_(SSB4)

Why not make him something that you can only play here in Crusade? You can play SSB4 Bowser in SSB4 whenever you want.

StayPuft wrote:

Nara wrote:

You can make Bowser just like ssb4? http://www.ssbwiki.com/Bowser_(SSB4)

Why not make him something that you can only play here in Crusade? You can play SSB4 Bowser in SSB4 whenever you want.

Besides, Koopa Klaw is better in every way to Flying Slam.

I may make a Bowser guide soon. PM me if you want to contribute.

Yoshi's jump armor is different. There are several different kinds of armor, super armor being one of them.

There is no damage limit to super armor. Heavy armor has a set damage limit. Knockback-dependent armor has a kb resist limit. The latter is what yoshi has in official smash games, and does not exist in crusade.

In crusade, super armor can be set to one of two things, resist any single hit (which is what Bowser has) or resist all hits and grabs. Not sure if there are any examples of the latter in use at the moment. Heavy armor can armor any number of hits, but breaks by moves over a certain damage threshold. This currently exists on Ryu's down B, Yoshi's double jump, and more.

Good to know.

CSWooly wrote:

StayPuft wrote:

Nara wrote:

You can make Bowser just like ssb4? http://www.ssbwiki.com/Bowser_(SSB4)

Why not make him something that you can only play here in Crusade? You can play SSB4 Bowser in SSB4 whenever you want.

Besides, Koopa Klaw is better in every way to Flying Slam.

What AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

TrinitroMan wrote:

CSWooly wrote:

Besides, Koopa Klaw is better in every way to Flying Slam.

What AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

It is. Whilst it may not be a suicide KO, it has better followup potential and KO potential, as well as actually having a hitbox if you miss the grab. Flying Slam has none of these.

Guys, Dash Slash is the best Bowser Side Special, come on. No landing lag, approach options, absolutely great. Sign this petition to have it replace Koopa Klaw today.
not really.

Dr. CanadianBacon wrote:

Guys, Dash Slash is the best Bowser Side Special, come on. No landing lag, approach options, absolutely great. Sign this petition to have it replace Koopa Klaw today.
not really.

Haha. I'm not gonna lie. Dash Slash is really good. If Dash Klaw was a thing though.

Dash Slash would be good as a Dash Attack IMO.

I'd prefer a new dash attack, the weird Bowser Flop feels weird to me, Dash Slash would be cool by me.

Bowser Flop is really unreliable. It doesn't kill to early and can leave you wide open.

Bowser's dash attack will definitely feel better in the next demo. I'll take a look at it's balance as well.

CSWooly wrote:

TrinitroMan wrote:

CSWooly wrote:

Besides, Koopa Klaw is better in every way to Flying Slam.

What AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

It is. Whilst it may not be a suicide KO, it has better followup potential and KO potential, as well as actually having a hitbox if you miss the grab. Flying Slam has none of these.

Hey here's an idea how about an entirely new Side Special based on a move he actually uses in a game

And couldn't he have both? By pressing > or < he would do the Koopa Klaw and pressing ^ or v would do the Flying Slam. Also, maybe the Flying Slam could be cancel mid air or while Bowser is falling and then do the Koopa Klaw.