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Smash King
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PostSubject: Little Mac Discussion   Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:18 am


Discuss, share opinions, ideas, etc. about Little Mac.
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OmegaSteve777
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:45 pm

Little Mac in this game is pretty fun. But I think that he could have some sort of Star gimmick or something. The lack of reference to the stars is sad.

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TrinitroMan
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:58 pm

I also think that he really REALLY needs his KO bar from Smash 4.
Aside from that, he really plays well for a photoshopped Little Mac.
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Shiruza
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:14 am

Why not have him gain up to three stars in the same way that the KO Meter might fill, then give him his Star Punch for his Neutral Special? It would increase in power with each star, similar to Phoenix Wright's evidence, but activating N-Spec would use up a star. At full power it would work like the KO Uppercut and use up all three stars instead of just the one.

And because I know that N-Spec is supposed be Little Mac's penultimate finisher, linking into his U-Spec and F-Spec, its current functionality could be completely remapped to U-Tilt (mainly because of how U-Tilt is currently just half of U-Smash). That way, those who liked the older N-Spec would keep its functionality, while those who thought it was dull and lacked uniqueness would have a new, more mechanically interesting attack.
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OmegaSteve777
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:10 pm

That's a good idea
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AmareTSM

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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:56 pm

I feel like his moves need more visual flare. Like, it already hurts that all his moves have to be punches, and that limits design potential, but he looks so... boring. Like, even his special moves, which are usually the flashier moves, are dull. Like, his N-Spec literally could be an up tilt. Up-B, wow, he does a rising punch. Side-Spec is, you guessed it, a punch where he moves to the side. D-Spec is a counter, where he... punches. All of these moves are similar to SSB4, but... lamer. And seeing as it's a cardinal sin to suggest that you change a character to be like SSB4, I'm not gonna do that (even though we wouldn't be losing anything by doing that). But please, make his moves a bit more... memorable. Like, in terms of functionality, you wouldn't even have to change too much, if anything, but just make them look more appealing.
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Shiruza
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:23 pm

AmareTSM wrote:
I feel like his moves need more visual flare. Like, it already hurts that all his moves have to be punches, and that limits design potential, but he looks so... boring. Like, even his special moves, which are usually the flashier moves, are dull. Like, his N-Spec literally could be an up tilt. Up-B, wow, he does a rising punch. Side-Spec is, you guessed it, a punch where he moves to the side. D-Spec is a counter, where he... punches. All of these moves are similar to SSB4, but... lamer. And seeing as it's a cardinal sin to suggest that you change a character to be like SSB4, I'm not gonna do that (even though we wouldn't be losing anything by doing that). But please, make his moves a bit more... memorable. Like, in terms of functionality, you wouldn't even have to change too much, if anything, but just make them look more appealing.

Funny you mentioned the U-Tilt thing, look above.
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Dustination



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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:32 pm

AmareTSM wrote:
And seeing as it's a cardinal sin to suggest that you change a character to be like SSB4, I'm not gonna do that (even though we wouldn't be losing anything by doing that).

Where on earth did you get this idea
You are aware that Little Mac was in Crusade long before SSB4 right

But yes I agree he looks like ass
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Shiruza
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:35 pm

Dustination wrote:
AmareTSM wrote:
And seeing as it's a cardinal sin to suggest that you change a character to be like SSB4, I'm not gonna do that (even though we wouldn't be losing anything by doing that).

Where on earth did you get this idea
You are aware that Little Mac was in Crusade long before SSB4 right

But yes I agree he looks like ass

Not going to lie here, I thought the same thing. Mostly from the new characters.
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OmegaSteve777
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:46 pm

I feel like he just needs to be faster animations, his forward smash seems like it lasts forever.
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AmareTSM

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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:26 am

When 9.0 full (cuz Mac wasn't in 9test) came out, SSB4 was a couple days away from coming out (3DS). However, Mac was announced in February of that year. Now, I wasn't into Crusade at that time, so I don't know when you guys announced him, or started working on him, but I don't really care if he came out "before" SSB4 or not. Y'alls Megaman came out before SSB4, and he's still wack. I was just reffering to the fact that every time somebody refers to changing something to SSB4, they get flack. Which is weird because you changed Ryu to be like SSB4 when he needed it the least.

Edit: Also, I hadn't noticed somebody mentioned the whole N-Spec/Uptilt thing
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Shiruza
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:31 am

AmareTSM wrote:
When 9.0 full (cuz Mac wasn't in 9test) came out, SSB4 was a couple days away from coming out (3DS). However, Mac was announced in February of that year. Now, I wasn't into Crusade at that time, so I don't know when you guys announced him, or started working on him, but I don't really care if he came out "before" SSB4 or not. Y'alls Megaman came out before SSB4, and he's still wack. I was just reffering to the fact that every time somebody refers to changing something to SSB4, they get flack. Which is weird because you changed Ryu to be like SSB4 when he needed it the least.

Edit: Also, I hadn't noticed somebody mentioned the whole N-Spec/Uptilt thing

My guess is that they were working on him long before that. Either way, I actually like the hidden mechanic that they have for Mac; The longer the combo string, the more damage F-Spec or U-Spec will do as a finisher.
If they combine that with the "Star Punch" ability above, I think it'd be enough to keep him fresh and yet still familiar.

Anyone here vote that combination?
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Dustination



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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:17 am

AmareTSM wrote:
When 9.0 full (cuz Mac wasn't in 9test) came out, SSB4 was a couple days away from coming out (3DS). However, Mac was announced in February of that year. Now, I wasn't into Crusade at that time, so I don't know when you guys announced him, or started working on him, but I don't really care if he came out "before" SSB4 or not. Y'alls Megaman came out before SSB4, and he's still wack. I was just reffering to the fact that every time somebody refers to changing something to SSB4, they get flack. Which is weird because you changed Ryu to be like SSB4 when he needed it the least.

Edit: Also, I hadn't noticed somebody mentioned the whole N-Spec/Uptilt thing

The difference being that Mega Man's development began literally the day after he was announced for ssb4, (June 2013) and Little Mac was completed long before then.

I'm not sure who "everyone" is but the devs as far as I know have not publicly expressed their disdain for ssb4 content and they're the ones that make the changes. With Ryu, making coding changes to make him function more similarly to his ssb4 counterpart happened to be easier than respriting Duck Hunt Dog completely, for example, simple as that.

Don't assume things won't happen because at the end of the day you don't know for sure. That's why we have these boards set up, so you can suggest things you'd like to see, not talk about things that (apparently) won't happen. Speculation is fine but you shouldn't pass these types of things off as fact.
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:34 am

And by easier, we're talking about a few days worth of work for Ryu versus a few months worth of work for anyone else. Massive difference. It wasn't a matter of character priority. This isn't to say other characters can't get SSB4 changes in the future, merely clarification on why things progress the way they do sometimes in game development. Remember that this is a game released in demo stages, not a completed product. The order things happen in is just how game development works, which you dont normally see because AAA games get released as a final build, but what you don't see is the actual order in which things got added behind the scenes.

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Dan Habiki
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:51 pm

What is the use of current little mac's side smash? It looks like it does big damage stuns but... doesn't kill. I would get it if he could move and wreck the opponent's shit during this stun time with a free hit but what's this? I am recovering during this time... so what's the use of it now?

and why is his sprite so stiff? It's like he really really doesn't want to work his knees
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:53 pm

His side smash is a stun, like zamus' down smash. Start a combo or hit with his up or down smash afterwards.

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Shiruza
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:20 am

Perfect Hell wrote:
His side smash is a stun, like zamus' down smash.  Start a combo or hit with his up or down smash afterwards.

But you can't act out of it. At least not normally.

You seem pretty confident that you can, though; any tips?
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:36 am

You can't cancel it or anything, but the stun should last longer than the end lag unless something went wrong there. I usually like to follow it with side tilt into dash attack, which can be cancelled into a turn-around side smash, from there you could repeat or you could do some up tilt up air combos to end in an up b, by that point Up B has been massively powered up.

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Dan Habiki
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:12 pm

Perfect Hell wrote:
You can't cancel it or anything, but the stun should last longer than the end lag unless something went wrong there.  I usually like to follow it with side tilt into dash attack, which can be cancelled into a turn-around side smash, from there you could repeat or you could do some up tilt up air combos to end in an up b, by that point Up B has been massively powered up.

???
Have to tried this or you are telling us what its good for? because I'm trying this and the end recovery frames are waaay to long on ANYONE. You can not combo it in to down smash because a dude can land and run away by then and you can't start anything because the guy would not only be above ground but away from your reach.
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:48 pm

Could you provide an example character / percent? I just loaded up the public version, Little Mac v Mario on FD at 0%. Side Smash left Mario standing on the ground directly in front of him and stunned longer than Mac's end lag. I tried it a few more times at mid and upper mid percents, same results.

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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:20 pm

Perfect Hell wrote:
Could you provide an example character / percent?  I just loaded up the public version, Little Mac v Mario on FD at 0%.  Side Smash left Mario standing on the ground directly in front of him and stunned longer than Mac's end lag.  I tried it a few more times at mid and upper mid percents, same results.

Can I just say that, from experience, it's not exactly a good idea to use F-Smash? The endlag isn't short enough to effectively attack out of it; whether or not you can technically attack out of it is a point that the average player won't exactly be able to take advantage of. Even after being told a combo that's 100% supposed to work I'm still having trouble with it, and I've been playing this game at least three times every week since 0.7 (so no it's not because I'm bad at Crusade).

For a good example of a stunning Smash Attack, look no further than ZSS's D-Smash in the official games. Perfect amount of endlag to combo out of and the opponent doesn't move from their spot at all; it's a trap, as it should be.

Plus Mac's F-Smash has awful reach as well. Combine long endlag with zero kill potential and bad reach and it's overall just a bad option in general.

If I may propose a very easy fix? Make the attack end about three frames after the punch's final hitbox. That'll make the attack quick to execute consecutively, but the bad range would then act to balance that out to prevent spamming. Plus, stun attacks don't stockpile, so consecutively hitting the opponent would do nothing but deal consecutive damage (much like how after punching an opponent in Punch-Out!!, they become stunned, allowing for consecutive hits).
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Dan Habiki
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:56 pm

Perfect Hell wrote:
Could you provide an example character / percent?  I just loaded up the public version, Little Mac v Mario on FD at 0%.  Side Smash left Mario standing on the ground directly in front of him and stunned longer than Mac's end lag.  I tried it a few more times at mid and upper mid percents, same results.

I just tried mario and like Shiruza said, you can't do anything with that end lag in the way. There is no guaranteed combo and the opponent can use them 2 frames (in the air and landing) to just roll away. The higher the percentage is, the more hopeless the f-smash becomes.
I do love Shiru's suggestion tho
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:26 pm

Something weird is happening here then, because not only are my combos working but they're not even difficult. And I don't mean that as an insult against you guys, I literally mean that comboing off side smash is extremely easy on my end with Mario not moving at all after being hit and staying stunned noticeably longer than the end lag. This is off the latest 0.9.0 patch version available publicly. Might even record a video later.

If mario is going airborne for you, it could potentially be that the AI is employing some nasty SDI up and away or something, since Mac's smash attack does not operate like a traditional "stun", it uses actual hitstun frames since the ZSS stun type is also tied to an electrical effect, which would not make sense on a punch. I think it's safe to say that's what's happening here, try using the smash attack on a completely idle human controlled opponent and see if you get my result.

That being said, this attack won't be a stun at all in the next version iirc. Shiruza does have a solid idea though.

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Shiruza
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:29 pm

Perfect Hell wrote:
Something weird is happening here then, because not only are my combos working but they're not even difficult.  And I don't mean that as an insult against you guys, I literally mean that comboing off side smash is extremely easy on my end with Mario not moving at all after being hit and staying stunned noticeably longer than the end lag.  This is off the latest 0.9.0 patch version available publicly.  Might even record a video later.

If mario is going airborne for you, it could potentially be that the AI is employing some nasty SDI up and away or something, since Mac's smash attack does not operate like a traditional "stun", it uses actual hitstun frames since the ZSS stun type is also tied to an electrical effect, which would not make sense on a punch.  I think it's safe to say that's what's happening here, try using the smash attack on a completely idle human controlled opponent and see if you get my result.

That being said, this attack won't be a stun at all in the next version iirc.  Shiruza does have a solid idea though.

Honestly the news of it not being a stun is happy for me. I'll miss the unique functionality but I'll gladly welcome a forward-facing kill option (yes I know about F-Spec xD).

That being said DI was the first suspect, yes, but if you can DI out of it it's still a problem.

...And that being said again, this isn't really an issue anymore anyways because the idea is being scrapped entirely. ^ ^;
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:07 pm

Yeah, in future versions that FSmash is a regular hit with knockback. Though I never really had issues comboing from it either. FTilt or Side B was my follow up depending on how long the combo was.
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:56 pm

I would like little mac ot have some smash 4 moves like forward and down smash and the KO punch being brought over.
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:01 pm

Hey man. It's cool that you like to request ideas, but why port over moves smash another game when you could have a more unique experience?
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:38 am

Leafyon wrote:
Hey man. It's cool that you like to request ideas, but why port over moves smash another game when you could have a more unique experience?

Because the Crusade equivalents are a little lacking? Namely D-Smash and N-Spec.
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:41 am

I would like the N-Special (Full charged meter) to be like Smash 4, using a star-like thing instead. The Side Special could work like Mac's N-Special without the meter charged, but i don't have any problem with his current Side Special. The Up Special is ok as it is, Smash 4's Up Special sucks tbh. His down Special could give him momentun when he punches like in Smash 4.
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PostSubject: Re: Little Mac Discussion   Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:36 pm

desu wrote:
I would like the N-Special (Full charged meter) to be like Smash 4, using a star-like thing instead. The Side Special could work like Mac's N-Special without the meter charged, but i don't have any problem with his current Side Special. The Up Special is ok as it is, Smash 4's Up Special sucks tbh. His down Special could give him momentun when he punches like in Smash 4.

I agree with everything but F-Spec; it's fine as is in Crusade. Same functionality as in Smash 4, but with less SD potential and much more combo potential (to help with his main gimmick in Crusade).
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