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Doqtor Kirby
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:01 am

In short, it's canon.
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:54 pm

TrinitroMan wrote:
Perfect Hell wrote:
The idea that it would be easy or even possible to just re-use sprites and code to complete Kirby's official SSB neutral special holds absolutely no backing in how game development actually works.
Okay, what kind of backass explanation is this?
The points of the other people, I can kinda understand, but your argument just boils down to "It's not happening because I said so".
Yeah no. I need ACTUAL reasons!

Actually my argument was that you cannot simply re-use things and expect it to come out working just fine. It simply is not how coding and spriting something like this could possibly work. I gave the short version because most people in here are not spriters/coders/developers and there's no real reason to spell out the logistics/details, the simple fact for the purpose of this thread is it can't and won't happen. But here's the long explanation:

Kirby's sprites do not currently have the necessary frames to make the needed animations look even remotely close to acceptable. New animations would need to be made. Sure, some might be re-useable once made, such as Mario/Luigi copies, but examples of this are actually few and far between, so really we'd be looking at at least 50 new animations, probably a lot more considering that's only taking into account one animation per copy, which in reality there are many that would end up needing more than one animation, as the character neutral B's themselves often do. That's like spriting another entire character or resprite, which is much more important than Kirby's neutral B.

From a coding perspective, you would need the code of over 60 neutral B's in a single script. That is a TON of code for one move. Load times of the character need to be considered here. Not only that, but you could not simply copy-paste the code, that's not how it works. You could possibly copy-paste the framework for many of them, but there would still be a ton of changing, tweaking, testing, etc. ESPECIALLY since you would need to seriously consolidate each neutral b to a more concisely coded version, see my next point. There's quite a lot of code involved, and that's before considering the problems that arise from having so much code contained within that single character attack script.

Moreover, all of this work would only be achieving the end goal of making Kirby more like official SSB games, yet this isn't the first character in Crusade to have a moveset change in the interest of canon. It's a pretty minor concern all things considered, with a heaping workload to account for. It is not worth it at all. What would be worthwhile is to have some more options added to the current neutral B. That's a similar concept but with a fraction of the number of new things to add.

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Alexander

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:06 pm

TrinitroMan wrote:
Perfect Hell wrote:
The idea that it would be easy or even possible to just re-use sprites and code to complete Kirby's official SSB neutral special holds absolutely no backing in how game development actually works.
Okay, what kind of backass explanation is this?
The points of the other people, I can kinda understand, but your argument just boils down to "It's not happening because I said so".
Yeah no. I need ACTUAL reasons!
Nobody owes you an explanation. There's a difference between debating a design choice for the character and essentially demeaning what work we have now. Also, you could ask for clarification rather than being incredibly rude.

I know I'm not a moderator and it's not really my place to make this post, but you need to work on your attitude there, dude.

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TrinitroMan
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:19 pm

Yeah, sorry. Had a meltdown there... Sad
And thanks for actually clarifiying your point. Actually forgot that copy-paste can be error-prone...
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Dan Habiki
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:11 pm

TrinitroMan wrote:
Perfect Hell wrote:
The idea that it would be easy or even possible to just re-use sprites and code to complete Kirby's official SSB neutral special holds absolutely no backing in how game development actually works.
Okay, what kind of backass explanation is this?
The points of the other people, I can kinda understand, but your argument just boils down to "It's not happening because I said so".
Yeah no. I need ACTUAL reasons!

Lol someone's mad for the silliest reason.

I rather love kirbys gimmick here, using his canon abilities, even though there is a slight fact that

1. wheel is kinda bad
2. Most fighters give kirby the "Fighter" ability. Gee, I wonder why?/s

I would love to see this more diverse and expanded.
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:32 am

I actually feel Wheel is one of the best ones. It is almost identical to Sonic's down b, which is the fast combo centric move that defines his whole playstyle.

Unfortunately there's a lot of characters who wouldn't make sense with any of the existing abilities other than fighter. Eventually we would like to expand the list of abilities.

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Bedoop Bro
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:55 am

Funny.

I don't-a remember Kirby having a Glide... O_o
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:17 pm

If I may ask, how does Kirby copy the other characters? I understand that he uses abilities from his home series, but how do you determine what ability goes with each character (why does Character X give Kirby "Y Ability")?

Edit: Also, if you ever do let Kirby copy the opponent's special, you could save spriting time by making it to where Kirby doesn't get a hat and still giving him the special of whoever he copied. Maybe it could be identified by placing the copied character's stock icon over Kirby's damage meter portrait. Just an idea
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OmegaSteve777
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:09 pm

It's probably logic for the most part.
Mario shoots fire so Kirby would get fire.

Some abilities aren't implemented yet, so some don't make much sense.
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DestinyIntwined
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:59 pm

Ness and Lucas = Psychic
Chun Li, Ryu, Evil Ryu, and Mach Rider = Fighter
etc.
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OmegaSteve777
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:40 am

DestinyIntwined wrote:
Ness and Lucas = Psychic

There is no psychic ability, but there is ESP.

I imagine it'd be like Ness's PK Flash, but faster and less powerful, mostly because that's what's it like in Planet Robobot.

I might make a full list of what all of Kirby's abilities in Crusade should be in the future.
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:44 am

OmegaSteve777 wrote:
I might make a full list of what all of Kirby's abilities in Crusade should be in the future.
I was thinking of going through the current characters to see what abilities Kirby gets right now. If I make a list of that, I may be off in the naming of the abilities though, as I haven't really played Kirby much.
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Broke The Screeen
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:55 am

Tbh I like it better if Kirby copied character's neutral B when inhaling them.
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Alexander

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:07 pm

I think everybody would agree on that, but it's a matter of workload vs benefit.

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OmegaSteve777
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:46 pm

Mario-Fire
Luigi-Spark
Weegee-Laser
Peach-Parasol
Toad-Poison
Bowser-Fire
Petey Piranha-Leaf
Waluigi-Tornado
Wario-Fighter
Ashley-Clean
Donkey Kong-Animal
Yoshi-Whip
Geno-Laser
Pikachu-Spark
Pichu-Spark
Jigglypuff-Wheel (Mike would be OP)
Mewtwo-ESP
Lucario-Fighting or Metal
Snivy-Whip or Leaf
Samus-Bomb
Zero Suit Samus-Whip
Ridley-Fire
Link-Sword or Archer
Toon Link-Sword or Archer (Probably could alternate between the two, one could have sword, while the other has archer)
Ganondorf-Poison
Tingle-
Olimar-Leaf
Marth-Sword
Fox-Jet
Falco-Jet
Krystal-Spear
Captain Falcon-Wheel, but I believe that Kirby already has the falcon punch (I think I read that on the forum somewhere)
Kirby-Nothing
Gooey-Whip
Meta Knight-Sword
Ness-ESP or Yo-Yo
Lucas-ESP
Porky-Needle or Bomb
Little Mac-Fighting
Saki-Laser or Sword or maybe Spear or maybe Cutter
Ice Climbers-Ice
R.O.B.-Laser or Beam
Duck Hunt Dog-Bomb or Animal
Mach Rider-Wheel
Mr. Game & Watch-Circus
Snake-Bomb
Bomberman-Bomb
Sonic-Wheel
Tails-Tornado
Knuckles-Fighting
Shadow-ESP
Ristar-Whip
Rayman-Fighting or Wing or Tornado
Crash Bandicoot- Animal or Tornado
Mega Man-Beam
Ryu-Fighter
Evil Ryu-Fighter
Chun-Li-Fighter
Phoenix Wright-Needle
Pac-Man-Ghost
Klonoa-Animal or Magic
Goku-Fighting

Dr. Mario-Doctor
Shantae-Magic

I've excluded Stone and Hammer because Kirby already has those abilities. Cutter is fine because it works a bit differently in his moveset.


Last edited by OmegaSteve777 on Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Chaotic Chao
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:06 pm

Wright would probably be Needle because of his spiky hair. Lots of humorous jabs about his pointy hair are made in Ace Attorney so it'd make more sense than you think...heh. But, that's just what I think.
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OmegaSteve777
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:12 am

Well it's better than anything I've came up with.

So I added it.
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:00 am

Well, here is what Kirby gets from the characters currently:

Mario-Fire
Luigi-Spark
Weegee-Falcon Punch
Peach-Parasol
Toad-Beam
Bowser-Fire
Petey Peranh-Fighter
Waluigi-Bomb
Wario-Wheel
Ashley-Spark
Donkey Kong-Fighter
Yoshi-Wheel
Geno-Beam
Pikachu-Spark
Pichu-Spark
Jigglypuff-Wheel
Mewtwo-Beam
Lucario-Fighter
Snivy-Fighter
Samus-Beam
Zero Suit Samus-Beam
Ridley-Fire
Link-Sword
Toon Link-Sword
Ganondorf-Beam
Tingle-Parasol
Olimar-Parasol
Marth-Sword
Fox-Laser
Falco-Laser
Krystal-Laser
Captain Falcon-Falcon Punch
Kirby-N/A
Gooey-Parasol
Meta Knight-Sword
Ness-Spark
Lucas-Spark
Porky-Bomb
Little Mac-Fighter
Saki-Beam
Ice Climbers-Beam
R.O.B-Laser
Duck Hunt Dog-Laser
Mach Rider-Wheel
Mr Game & Watch-Parasol
Snake-Bomb
Bomberman-Bomb
Sonic-Wheel
Tails-Laser
Knuckles-Fighter
Shadow-Beam
Ristar-Fighter
Rayman-Fighter
Crash Bandicoot-Fighter
Megaman-Laser
Ryu-Fighter
Evil Ryu-Fighter
Chun-Li-Fighter
Phoenix Wright-Fighter
PAC-MAN-Wheel
Klanoa-Sword
Goku-Fighter

In short, we have
Laser            (7 Characters)
Bomb            (4)
Falcon Punch (2)
Fighter          (14)
Fire               (3)
Beam            (9)
Parasol          (5)
Spark             (6)
Sword               (5)
Wheel            (6)


OmegaSteve777 wrote:
Captain Falcon-Wheel, but I believe that Kirby already has the falcon punch (I think I read that on the forum somewhere)
It does currently exist, and both Captain Falcon and Weegee give it to Kirby. It makes sense that Weegee has it for his copy ability, as Weegee is a Meme, and so is Falcon Punch


Last edited by wheeled_tank on Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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OmegaSteve777
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:46 pm

You screwed up a bit.

Magic is actually Beam and Beam is actually Laser.

Also it's Spark not Shock.
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:49 pm

Well, like I said, I don't play kirby. I'll fix it shortly
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Kirb-Star
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:00 pm

Donkey Kong's should be Beast Kirby from Squeak Squad and Ashley's should be Clean.
Btw, I personally think it would be a good idea to give Kirby, aside from the abilities from his Super Star-esque games, he should get some from Dream Land 2,3 and 64, like Fire Sword, Drill, Spark/Fire variants, etc.
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Jexulus
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:22 am

Kirb-Star wrote:
Donkey Kong's should be Beast Kirby from Squeak Squad and Ashley's should be Clean.
Btw, I personally think it would be a good idea to give Kirby, aside from the abilities from his Super Star-esque games, he should get some from Dream Land 2,3 and 64, like Fire Sword, Drill, Spark/Fire variants, etc.
Half of the characters that give Kirby the Fighter copy ability could qualify for copy abilities that fit better.

Petey Piranha and Snivy: Leaf (Kirby's Return to Dreamland)
Donkey Kong, Crash Bandicoot and Knuckles: Animal (Kirby's Squeak Squad) (It's a digging power, which is why Knuckles is included)
Rayman and Ristar: Whip (Kirby's Return to Dreamland)
Phoenix Wright: I have no idea.  Mike, maybe?

EDIT: I was reading off of the current list; I didn't even realize the earlier one existed.


Last edited by Jexulus on Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:25 am

Chaotic Chao suggested Needle for Phoenix Wright as his hair is extremely spiky (which is apparently a place of Joking in the Ace Attorney series)

Correct me if I am wrong, but Mike Kirby damages/defeats all enemies on the screen. If it was maybe modified to work similar to a mix of Barbara's power/range as an Assist Trophy in Brawl and DK's "Keep the Beat" portion of his Final Smash, then maybe it could work
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Jexulus
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:36 am

wheeled_tank wrote:
Chaotic Chao suggested Needle for Phoenix Wright as his hair is extremely spiky (which is apparently a place of Joking in the Ace Attorney series)
Yeah, I saw that after the fact. Considering Mike would be the only limited-use power to appear, Needle is a better option.
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MarioStrikerMurphy1994
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:19 pm

It's curious that Kirby uses Abilities from his games as Neutral instead the Neutral Special from the character he swallowed...
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Braystar
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:09 pm

It's not that curious, as PH has already explained why they can't have the B move of the character you copied.
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Ridori
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:32 pm

Braystar wrote:
It's not that curious, as PH has already explained why they can't have the B move of the character you copied.
They can do that. But they won't do that because it would take too much time that could be used for something else and would add extra loading time. It might have been possible to do without such problems if roster wasn't so big.
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wheeled_tank
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:11 am

Question? Where can I find a Base Crusade sprite of Kirby (or provide me one)? I want to make alot of different Kirby Hats of the different characters in the game. I know that we will most likely not get these used, but I just want to practice with spriting
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Slissith

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:39 am

wheeled_tank wrote:
Question? Where can I find a Base Crusade sprite of Kirby (or provide me one)? I want to make alot of different Kirby Hats of the different characters in the game. I know that we will most likely not get these used, but I just want to practice with spriting

Well our kirby is based on the Kirby Super Star Ultra sprites.

http://www.spriters-resource.com/ds/kssu/

Have fun!

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Bedoop Bro
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:05 pm

So I've decided who I'm gonna make next for a Character Suggestion.
And switching off from Yarn Yoshi, I decided to do an Alt. for another favorite of mine, Kirby.
Make a wish.
That's your hint, by the way.
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