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Smash King
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PostSubject: Kirby Discussion   Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:13 am


Discuss, share opinions, ideas, etc. about Kirby.
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Doqtor Kirby
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:34 am

It's KIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRBYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
/welshgamer
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Falcon8r

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:44 pm

Kirby has some really fun combos from Forward Throw at low percents. For example,

F Throw, jump, Fair, Nair - 31%
F Throw, jump, Fair, Fair (2 hits), D Smash - ~41%
F Throw, jump, Fair, Fair (2 hits), Up Tilt, Bair/Nair - 45%
F Throw, jump, Fair, Fair (2 hits), turn around, D Throw, Uair - 48-49%
F Throw, jump, Fair, Fair (2 hits), turn around, D Throw, Dair - ~55%
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Dry



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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:38 am

How on earth do you combo off the first fair
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SP

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:06 am

Dry wrote:
How on earth do you combo off the first fair

he's just better at the game than you Kappa
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Falcon8r

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:37 pm

Turns out the Dthrow -> Dair one is character-specific. For some reason some characters get launched really high by Dthrow. Anyway, here's a video.



(60 fps available)
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Dry



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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:17 am

Ok, I messed up the coding somewhere. The third hit of fair is supposed to send much, much further than that. Thanks for posting this.
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Falcon8r

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:27 pm

Dry wrote:
Ok, I messed up the coding somewhere. The third hit of fair is supposed to send much, much further than that. Thanks for posting this.
No, don't take it out. Razz These combos are actually really fun and can be DI'd anyway. Meh, if you think it's OP, you da man, but I'm just saying - they are kinda fun.
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:53 pm

It's pretty important to Kirby's balance design that they don't work. 40-50% combos without even having to use an ability copy is too much.

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HypeConduit
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:22 pm

Because

F Throw, jump, Fair, Fair (2 hits), Up Tilt, Bair/Nair - 45%

is totally broken, but

Sword, Sword, jump, Sword, Hammer - 44%

isn't?
Kappa
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Dry



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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:01 pm

Perfect Hell wrote:
Kirby's balance design

We've talked about this before, Hype. Kirby is great at combos with copy abilities, but bad at them without.
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Falcon8r

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:00 pm

If FThrow consistently combo'd into something even at mid-high damage, I'd say nerfing Fair (giving it more base knockback) is ok.
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HypeConduit
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:21 pm

Dry wrote:
Perfect Hell wrote:
Kirby's balance design

We've talked about this before, Hype. Kirby is great at combos with copy abilities, but bad at them without.

I understand that, I just find it sort of silly that going from no power -> power = practically effortless combos, but that learning more technical combos with powerless Kirby is considered abnormal. My opinion will probably stay that way for a while. More power to Kirby, though, so I'm not complaining, especially when the inhale is better than it is in literally anything else Kirby's ever been in.

It was just an observation anyways. Don't take it too harshly.
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Falcon8r

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:31 pm

HypeConduit wrote:
I understand that, I just find it sort of silly that going from no power -> power = practically effortless combos, but that learning more technical combos with powerless Kirby is considered abnormal. My opinion will probably stay that way for a while. More power to Kirby, though, so I'm not complaining, especially when the inhale is better than it is in literally anything else Kirby's ever been in.

It was just an observation anyways. Don't take it too harshly.

Inhale is really darn good in this game and has always been a bit too good in SSBC as far as I can remember. If it had less vertical range it would probably be fine if left the same outside of that.

I went and tried to land those combos in actual matches. Even the AI is pretty good at DIing randomly enough to where I messed them up often. Honestly, considering that, it's not overpowered. I did, however, get to play with the sword a bit. It's pretty strong - really helps Marth to be a bit more beatable.

Thing is, outside of Up Throw for KOs and Down Throw for raw damage, you have Back Throw for... well... throwing backwards. And Forward Throw is good for very low-percent combos. I guess it's fine. Kirby can still be a combo monster without having 45% impractical below 10%-only combos.
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Dry



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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:15 am

Inhale might be something looked into. I think I increased the vertical range right after 0.9T, but then decreased it again a while afterwards, but I may not have decreased it enough. My thinking is that Kirby falls slowly enough that he can't cover a huge area with his vertical range while falling, like, say, Ristar could with neutral B in one of the demos.

But yeah, Hype, I wouldn't really call the copy ability combos effortless. Most of them do combo into thsemselves, but these combos are like the fair combos: incredibly easy to DI. If you want to get insane combos from Kirby against someone with good DI, you have to use whichever attack is capable of following the DI, which is not always the copy ability.

So sword, for example, has problems repeatedly combo'ing if you DI down and towards Kirby. You have to use nair tech chase at low percentages, or dair at high percentages. If you get the tech chase perfect then you can 0-death with sword, but only with sword > sword > nair > chase with sword > nair > chase with sword > dair > fsmash/usmash, which gives you a LOT of room for screwing up.

The overall idea of Kirby (which may or may not have been executed well, that's a different matter) is that Kirby has a ton of combo moves, like utilt, dash attack, nair, fair, uair and dair, but all of them only combo into his copy abilities. So Kirby's insane combos look something like SHFFL fair > X > SHFFL fair > X > nair > dash attack > X > nair > X > nair > X > dair > smash, or utilt > utilt > X > nair > dthrow > X > uair > X > X (all depending on DI), where X does not exist in Kirby's moveset until he gets a copy ability.

Falcon, try out fthrow and bthrow right at the edge. You can probably guess exactly what happens Wink
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Mellon
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:30 am

I have a fairly strange suggestion, but hear me out: Since Jigglypuff really doesn't have a reason to be in the game anymore, why not take everything that made Jigglypuff "COOL" and give them to Kirby? All the aerials could be given to Kirby, and Kirby's Rock power could act like Jigglypuff's Rest if used close-range. Of course, this means Kirby can be hurt while he's a rock, and not burst out from it for a set period of time. Wheel kirby could also be added as Rollout, but...eh. I dunno, just don't like Jigglypuff.
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TaXMaN
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:50 am

Jigglypuff was there since 64. Why take her out now? Besides it would be a waste if she was to be removed.
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Mellon
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:01 am

Because she (Or he o3o) only made it into 64 because 1: She was kind of popular in the Anime and 2: She was very similar to Kirby. Both of those points are now invalid, and I see no reason to keep her in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:08 am

If goku's not getting removed, I don't see why Jiggs would.

Besides, Jiggs offers an interesting variation of a ballon type character. The more gameplay variation we have, the better. For a 50-man roster, it's essential that every character offers an overall unique experience.

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TaXMaN
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:48 am

Mellon wrote:
Because she (Or he o3o) only made it into 64 because 1: She was kind of popular in the Anime and 2: She was very similar to Kirby. Both of those points are now invalid, and I see no reason to keep her in the game.

What you say may be true but Jiggly appeared in EVERY Smash title up to date. I'd say that alone makes Jiggly quite relevant.
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Dan Habiki
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:34 pm

Kirby+ Sonic = wheel... ok I dig that
Kirby + C.Falcon = F.Punch??? thats kind of inconsistent
Kirby + Ice climber = beam? wtf

Will there be more abilities and those two are just placeholders?
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:38 am

We would like to add more abilities at some point.

Falcon punch stays though, because Falcon punch

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Shiruza
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:32 pm

Perfect Hell wrote:
We would like to add more abilities at some point.

Leaf, Ice and Mic would be nice (Mic for P.Wright and Olimar; obviously nerfed from the canon ability, maybe a high-knockback low-damage AOE attack that alternates between three types that change the hitbox).

Perfect Hell wrote:
Falcon punch stays though, because Falcon punch

I like the way you think.
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TrinitroMan
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:13 am

Okay, I never played as Kirby in Crusade, so excuse me for a minute.
*chooses Kirby as player and Ice Climber as opponent*
*inhales Popo and gets Beam instead of the opponent's Neutral B*
Okay...Kirby uses his source game copy abilities instead of copying the opponents's abilities?! ARE YOU FOR REAL NOW?!
I mean, being able to copy the opponent's ability was Kirby's one and only gimmick in...well, pretty much absolutely EVERY good Smash game (both official and fangame ones).
Taking that one and only gimmick away from Kirby would pretty much destroy the purpose of why Kirby is even in the Smash games in the first place! You might as well just remove Kirby from the roster, because sorry, but that is NOT the real Kirby, but simply a pink puffball who calls himself Kirby and tries to imitate the real Kirby, but fails horribly.
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:59 am

TrinitroMan wrote:
Okay, I never played as Kirby in Crusade, so excuse me for a minute.
*chooses Kirby as player and Ice Climber as opponent*
*inhales Popo and gets Beam instead of the opponent's Neutral B*
Okay...Kirby uses his source game copy abilities instead of copying the opponents's abilities?! ARE YOU FOR REAL NOW?!
I mean, being able to copy the opponent's ability was Kirby's one and only gimmick in...well, pretty much absolutely EVERY good Smash game (both official and fangame ones).
Taking that one and only gimmick away from Kirby would pretty much destroy the purpose of why Kirby is even in the Smash games in the first place!

The pros of source copy abilities

  • Coding is far easier.
  • Far less space occupied by sprites.
  • Balancing is easier.
  • Copy abilites can be further intergrated into Kirby's metagame.
  • It's a unique crusade twist that still adheres to canon.

TrinitroMan wrote:
You might as well just remove Kirby from the roster, because sorry, but that is NOT the real Kirby, but simply a pink puffball who calls himself Kirby and tries to imitate the real Kirby, but fails horribly.

bruh

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I mean really? "No character will have their testicles hang out"?
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Post count ain't gonna raise itself.

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TrinitroMan
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:40 am

Except that does not adhere to the canon at all, because neither Popo nor Nana ever learn something even close to Waddle Doo's Beam.
And actually, Kirby can pretty easily reuse his already existing sprites for the opponent's copy abilities, so the other point is moot as well.
And I have absolutely no idea what's so hard about coding attacks that already exist.
Copy-and-paste exists for a reason!
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:34 am

TrinitroMan wrote:
Except that does not adhere to the canon at all, because neither Popo nor Nana ever learn something even close to Waddle Doo's Beam.

I suppose you have a point. Adding more copy abilities from the source games is a possibility.

TrinitroMan wrote:

And actually, Kirby can pretty easily reuse his already existing sprites for the opponent's copy abilities, so the other point is moot as well.

For some of them, maybe, but not for all. And let's not forget that the game is bound to be even bigger than it already is. Kirby is an important character but still is one character in the game. Increasing the game's size for a character's gimmick (which is already represented, albeit differently and more economically) is not worth it imo.

TrinitroMan wrote:

And I have absolutely no idea what's so hard about coding attacks that already exist.
Copy-and-paste exists for a reason!

Copy and paste can perhaps be viable for small games, but programmers that know what they're doing strive for coding economy. They use smart code that performs the same tasks a larger counterpart would. This is extremely important for making a game, or any sort of software for that matter, be faster and more efficient. In case you haven't noticed, crusade already has notable loading times, which are only going to increase in the future.

Can you at least see my perspective now?

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Cobra Bubbles wrote:
Your expectations were too simple and downright stupid.
I mean really? "No character will have their testicles hang out"?
Thanks to you, I had to add two new rules.

VultureDuck wrote:
Crusade is a man's game

Jaklub wrote:
Post count ain't gonna raise itself.

Jaklub wrote:
this count down won't be uploaded to youtube, better enjoy it now.

Lego_Shaq wrote:
please dont think im actually racist

SmashBros._L0ver wrote:
fuck you slissith go to hell Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
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TaXMaN
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:04 am

@TrinitroMan: To add to what Slis said, it will also take up a lot of time to sprite 60+ new N-specials for Kirby. Some sprites can be reused for several N-specials like Mario and Luigi but it will still be a large heap of sprite work.
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:25 pm

The idea that it would be easy or even possible to just re-use sprites and code to complete Kirby's official SSB neutral special holds absolutely no backing in how game development actually works. It's not happening.

Crusade neutral B could use some more expansion though in terms of available options to receive from opponents, so more characters can feel like they give the right thing. Ice Climbers for example, there is nothing Kirby is currently capable of getting in Crusade that makes any kind of sense for them. Ice Kirby though, the one from actual Kirby games, that would work nicely.

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TrinitroMan
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PostSubject: Re: Kirby Discussion   Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:19 am

Perfect Hell wrote:
The idea that it would be easy or even possible to just re-use sprites and code to complete Kirby's official SSB neutral special holds absolutely no backing in how game development actually works.
Okay, what kind of backass explanation is this?
The points of the other people, I can kinda understand, but your argument just boils down to "It's not happening because I said so".
Yeah no. I need ACTUAL reasons!
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