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Smash King
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PostSubject: Goku Discussion   Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:12 am


Discuss, share opinions, ideas, etc. about Goku.
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Minor49er
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:20 pm

Can you PLEASE fix Kamehameha? The game is no fun when someone is Goku, because that move is so broken.
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:35 pm

The idea was to make Kamehameha work similarly to how SSF2 did it, although there are things about that version that im not fond of so it will be tweaked. I think they nailed making it feel like it does in the series though. I just think more minimum range is needed, and also i cant remember ever being impressed by it's strength on hit, even when charged. That would be cleaned up but the general idea of charging it and using it would be the same.

I've also toyed around with the thought of implementing his up b in a special way to do warp kamehameha. Balance wise and activation inputs though, that i've been struggling with. Maybe limit that to only in Kaio Ken mode, but then how it would actually work is another question entirely.

Side B is another thing i intended to work differently. I'd like it to work like the continuous Kamehameha does in Budokai games: Charge up for a moment and then launch a (slightly) homing sphere-like volley.

Any ideas on these are welcome.

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Falcon8r

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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:02 pm

The funny thing is that while Kamehameha is useful for scrambles, I feel Goku only really can rely on it for edgeguarding in 1v1 matches due to how slow it is. As a result, he feels a bit weaker in "for glory" style matches than he used to. He's also more technical now since he relies so much on floating for his close-range pressure (especially with Nair) due to the removal of some of his key spacing options (old Nair, old Forward Tilt, old Forward Smash).

All that said, the first thing that came to mind as far as balancing Kamehameha Wave is making it chargeable. The charge should affect not only the damage but also the range. Essentially, it would end up being just like Geno's beam. Thing is, it's already the Falcon Punch of projectiles, making it somewhat unique. I kinda don't want to let it go in that regard. Smile
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Dry



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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:38 am

I don't think we really need to let it go. It's honestly fine as it is, and never really was broken. It wasn't broken in 0.7, wasn't in 0.8.4, and now it's still not broken. It could possibly take a little longer to come out so that it's easier to dodge in free-for-alls.
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Crimson Heights
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:35 am

Where the Kamehameha ends is just a vertical line. Should be a ball like thing all the way through that fades away if you don't want it to go through the whole screen Very Happy give it a fade if you can do that.

Anyways I had to post this
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:11 am

Ive already slowed it down since 0.9T, among a host of other nerfs. Insane end lag, much less scaling, i think it does less damage to shields. It's so much worse than it used to be and outside of free-for-alls, never even was overpowered in the first place.

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desu
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:16 am

I don't have any problem with the kamehameha, as a matter of fact i see it like a technique to finish the opponent that is out the stage.
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Minor49er
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:51 pm

Okay, maybe I should explain my situation.

What happens is my friends (there are three of us) play pretty casually on Final Destination, stock, no items.

Whenever someone plays as Goku, they immediately run to the edge and start spamming. With some characters, there is no escape.

I have played Smash Flash 2, and would be very happy if it worked like that. The shorter you charge it, the less far it goes. Why can't it be that simple? I also hate that the hitbox is not lined up with the animation. The move travels way farther than it looks like it is.

I'm not trying to sound really whiny or angry, but it's just a little request that I was hoping would be addressed. Thank you.
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Crimson Heights
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:03 pm

what Minor said. What you do is you change the speed of his Kamehameha depending on how long you're going to charge it. and don't forget to make the end of the blast look prettier.
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Minor49er
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:08 pm

Thank you! Someone understands me!
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Crimson Heights
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:24 pm

Sorry, I should of added details to what you said. The Kamehameha isn't legit unless it's shoots across the screen, and sadly it doesn't do that right now, but can still go at a decent length.

The time he takes to charge the attack should mainly affect damage and knockback. Also what should matter is where you touch the blast from. The front should totally push you back pretty hard, then you have the top area, not sure what to call it, the blast line I guess, which shouldn't damage you that much or knock you back either.

Btw, if I remember correctly, the charge affecting how far it goes wouldn't be accurate to the cartoons. I think it always went pretty far, but for balance sake you can throw out realism. Again, as the above, I want it to go all the way across the screen, you can do it!!
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Minor49er
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:28 pm

Screw realism. If it means balance, I'll take it.
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Dry



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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:21 am

Can you explain why there's no escape? What's stopping you from just running at them and shielding between each Kamehameha?
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Crimson Heights
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:04 am

I was about to ask what his down special does, but I just tested it. Awesome!! If I wasn't terrible as Goku, I'd main him just to enjoy the animation of his down special.
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Minor49er
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:40 am

I try, but it's still a pain in the butt. It's no fun with friends. We ended up banning him simply because that move is annoying.

My point being, I really want to play as him. I like the rest of is moves and play style, but I just don't want to deal with it.
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TaXMaN
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:37 am

About Goku's Kaio Ken mode. I was thinking that there should be a way to turn it off. Maybe this function could be added to Goku's taunt similar to the way Kirby dismisses his special moves he obtains from opponents.
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Daw/Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:47 am

^ This.

I actually did not played much with Goku but I enjoyed him even in 0.5. lol
Doesn't need to fix anything on him.
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Crimson Heights
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:24 pm

TaXMaN wrote:
About Goku's Kaio Ken mode. I was thinking that there should be a way to turn it off. Maybe this function could be added to Goku's taunt similar to the way Kirby dismisses his special moves he obtains from opponents.
Definitely love this idea. You could still charge up with the taunt button, if that's what you're trying to say, and add another down special move for Goku.
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TaXMaN
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:51 pm

LatencyError wrote:
TaXMaN wrote:
About Goku's Kaio Ken mode. I was thinking that there should be a way to turn it off. Maybe this function could be added to Goku's taunt similar to the way Kirby dismisses his special moves he obtains from opponents.
Definitely love this idea. You could still charge up with the taunt button, if that's what you're trying to say, and add another down special move for Goku.

Well no, I actually just meant that Goku should have a way to turn his Kaio Ken mode off. Especially for 1v1 matches where he KO's someone and have to wait a few seconds for them to return. It could save him some damage since he builds up damage % while in Kaio Ken mode.
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Falcon8r

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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:55 pm

Minor49er wrote:
I try, but it's still a pain in the butt. It's no fun with friends. We ended up banning him simply because that move is annoying.

My point being, I really want to play as him. I like the rest of is moves and play style, but I just don't want to deal with it.

It's not too difficult to punish. Just don't give Goku any breathing room, and it will be easy to jump over it and hit Goku on the way down.

Here's the thing. Every character needs something that is unique, effective, and fun to use. Goku's Kamehameha Wave is something unlike any other move in the game. Is it good? Sure, in some ways more than others. Is it unbeatable? Not at all. Is it even slightly overpowered? That's a matter of opinion, but I think most in the SSBC community would say no and that it is fine as-is. Unless Kamehameha becomes something that's seriously abused, it doesn't need a nerf.
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:03 pm

Im less interested in nerfing it than i am in actually making it function the way you would expect it to. Chargeable and full screen, as someone mentioned earlier, would be perfection. Also stopping at walls and not looking dumb at it's further range would be nice.

Turning off kaio-ken through taunt could actually be overpowered. Go kaio-ken, kill opponent with new down b or suped up neutral B, turn it off. You sustain very little damage in the process. Not only is this somewhat unbalanced in certain cases, it's also not true to the source material, in which Kaio-ken brings it's user to the brink of death. The damage sustained from the entirety of it is necessity, and your reward is huge damage output and a likely kill.

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TaXMaN
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:18 am

Perfect Hell wrote:
Im less interested in nerfing it than i am in actually making it function the way you would expect it to.  Chargeable and full screen, as someone mentioned earlier, would be perfection.  Also stopping at walls and not looking dumb at it's further range would be nice.

Turning off kaio-ken through taunt could actually be overpowered.  Go kaio-ken, kill opponent with new down b or suped up neutral B, turn it off.  You sustain very little damage in the process.  Not only is this somewhat unbalanced in certain cases, it's also not true to the source material, in which Kaio-ken brings it's user to the brink of death.  The damage sustained from the entirety of it is necessity, and your reward is huge damage output and a likely kill.

Oh right, I forgot about the suped up neutral B. Facepalm Turning off kaio-ken would definately be overpowered then.
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Doq
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:42 am

If you want to turn off KK with a taunt, maybe have Goku take a massive amount of damage at once instead of a bit over time.

Nah, that's not canon.
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Dry



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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:26 am

I think PH is right, it's supposed to be a high-risk high-reward thing. Because let's be honest, it's pretty easy to get it up, if you just charge it in short bursts every time your enemy is far away. Better to give it the disadvantage through taking lots of damage.
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Crimson Heights
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:02 pm

Yeah I love Kaio-Ken the way it is, it's just fun seeing it accurately portrayed. Accuracy is the way to go ;)

Charge the Kamehameha for the next patch! Weak damage if you let it go fast, long charge means more damage and knockback, definitely from the front, and always fullscreen, if PH meant it'll go across the screen all the way, or until it hits a wall! Don't forget the fancy sparks and explosions when it hits the wall. Psst read my post above on how you handle him saying it slow and fast.

KA-ME-HA-ME-HAAA!!!!! Sorry, I just love classic DBZ and Toonami... Hmmm Tom 2...
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Minor49er
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:27 pm

Perfect Hell wrote:
Im less interested in nerfing it than i am in actually making it function the way you would expect it to.  Chargeable and full screen, as someone mentioned earlier, would be perfection.  Also stopping at walls and not looking dumb at it's further range would be nice.

Turning off kaio-ken through taunt could actually be overpowered.  Go kaio-ken, kill opponent with new down b or suped up neutral B, turn it off.  You sustain very little damage in the process.  Not only is this somewhat unbalanced in certain cases, it's also not true to the source material, in which Kaio-ken brings it's user to the brink of death.  The damage sustained from the entirety of it is necessity, and your reward is huge damage output and a likely kill.

I agree with everything here. I've been playing it quite a bit lately, and I don't think Goku is as bad. I just really think he needs some changes, specifically a chargeable kamehameha. You don't have to. I'm not pressuring anyone here, as it's clear I am the minority.

The thing is, I love this fan game. It is my favorite of the bunch. I'm just a fan asking a simple request. I didn't realize this post would spark so much debate. I apologize for that.

Would you still at least CONSIDER changing the move a bit? Thank you!
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Dry



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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:11 am

Haha you say "spark so much debate" like it's a bad thing. It's not like we're shouting at each other in all caps or anything. Debate is good.

One option is to go the same route as Falcon Punch. The current version is the "uncharged" version, and then beyond that Goku's Kamehameha gets even more ridiculous; however by this point it becomes so slow it's utterly useless outside of edgeguarding, and is mostly for show.
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Minor49er
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:15 pm

Well, that does certainly make me feel a bit better about expressing my opinion.

I understand it would be pretty much useless, but I'm not a huge competitive player. I am extremely good at Smash, but I am terrible at edge guarding for the most part.
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Shiruza
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PostSubject: Re: Goku Discussion   Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:43 am

Can I just mention, that as a person who continually rants and finds ways to nitpick any Goku character whatsoever in a Smash fangame... that I have nearly nothing to nitpick? I am *really* happy with what you've done with Goku, *especially* his Float, N-Air, and D-Spec.

...Still kinda miss Super Saiyan Goku for the Kai-O Ken Final Smash, though... BUT! Goku himself gets no complaints from me, even if you make the Kamehameha chargeable! A+, guys! ^-^
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