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 New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~

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Kenkeydee
Level 1 CPU


  12

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:48 am

This isn't a bug but in 0.8.4 there was the crowd reaction sound effects when the character was striked by other, but not in 0.9, will you put it in the future patch??? ( sorry for my bad english i hope you ll understand )
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NyxTheShield
Level 2 CPU


  38

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:14 am

Dry wrote:
One thing that should be mentioned is that the removal of l-cancelling came very late and very unexpectedly in development, and PH is the only coder-balancer who's extensively tested and balanced the non l-cancel metagame.

It is somewhat worrying to hear that Falcon's land lags are identical to Melee l-cancel. PH, the game's mobility is very different from Melee's, and hitstun is significantly different, for example in that it scales with damage to a much greater extent in Melee.

Fleep, I think it would be most helpful if you drew up a proper back room style analysis of what you think is wrong. Talk about the combos that work, the combos that don't work. Talk about kill percentages, talk about his spacing.

Those who are proficient with the competitive side of the game should definitely give good, detailed explanations of any oversights we've made. We had a close shave with a badly coded Luigi shortly before release, so we're not impeccable and we will have made balancing mistakes.

@Tempura: That mostly depends on your computer. Six players is a lot to handle, and if you've got a ton of projectiles on-screen then it gets worse. We do make an effort on optimisation, but at the end of the day it'll take quite a bit of computer power to get the most chaotic matches running at full speed.

@Fleep: A lot of characters can't short hop their aerials. Crusade has always had a much faster short hop than Melee, and that just helps make the game faster. Why are you even trying to SH fair? It has too much startup to even be considered for spacing. Most slow aerials on fast SH characters can't come out. So Snake can't do fair, Weegee can't do bair, DK can't do fair or dair, etc.

Also, the engine has been edited a lot, and that's probably why things are a bit clunkier. It's interesting you mentioned Fox's Shine, because I remember at one point after an engine change, Shine sent opponents halfway across FD. We fixed that, obviously, but we don't always notice when engine changes have bad side-effects. That's probably what happened to Fox's Shine. PH has done a huge amount of work on Fox, but he's also intercut that with lots of engine changes, and the two may have just intertwined badly.

It's strange that you don't have the same complaints about Lucas or Sonic, though. According to PH every character has very similar land lag data for their mobility class, and Lucas, Sonic, Falco and Falcon all fall under the same.

@PH: I haven't actually had a chance to look at Falcon yet. I haven't played as him since your big revamp after APEX last year. So I have no idea lol.

Tha's the problem, you are putting balancing OVER gameplay, making some characters unable to SH->aerial is beyond madness, you should nerf move's hitboxes, priority, knockback, momentum, NOT a character's inner atribute, now for example, Sonic has a stupid Dash (I can kill of the side dashing from a ledge, same for Falcon and Pikachu) but has a mediocre Aerial speed and an unusable SH (Its like the only thing you want us to make is SH>Nair), he is still pretty good considering most of the true combos are gone in this demo, but for some others characters this is not true.

I will make a video this week pointing some evident flaws, maybe even with voice.
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JMan
Level 4 CPU


  Knuckles
  112

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:27 am

sadly the entire Online is a bug
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HypeConduit
Level 6 CPU


  Klonoa
  872
  XMister_RatburnX

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:31 am

I feel kind of villainous dwelling on the L-Cancel, but the mechanic was what created a lot of the speedy gameplay that was in 0.9T. At least, that's how it was for me. I remember reporting the "ice-skating" glitch a year ago, but I didn't do that because it enabled high speed for heavies (and pretty much everyone), I reported it because I knew it was simply a glitch. I understand the new horizontal movement, and I welcome the walking and running with open arms. I even like the C-stick, (however, I kind wish we still had a smash button) but I don't know if it's just me when I say that taking away the L-Canceling altogether takes away about half of the mobility for a lot of characters. If you feel it's over-enabling the characters, it still wouldn't be as powerful as it was in the last version thanks to the new running/skidding physics.

By the way, I'll start listing glitches daily/semi-daily on this thread, since I don't have anything better to do but play Crusade for the next couple days.
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Guest
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PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:54 am

I forgot to mention that Green Hill Zone is lacking water in its background. Also, when I selected GHZ on training mode, the CPU (Ice Climbers lvl 10) kept moving left and suiciding until I paused and the finally stopped.
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desu
Level 6 CPU


  Yoshi
  631
  fanyoshixD

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:19 am

Lucas is still bugged, sometimes you can't control him, also i think his final smash doens't work, the pk starstorm doens't happear.
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Dry



  4607

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:26 am

But Fleep, why should SH aerials be an "innate attribute"? They aren't intrinsically required or anything. In fact it's impossible to enable a lot of SH aerials (Snake and DK examples) without tearing apart their mobility.

Hype, the idea is that the current land lags are as quick as they would be with l-cancelling. Theoretically. If there's a difference, it shouldn't be noticeable, unless something went wrong.
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C_Mill24
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  Random
  2071
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PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:21 am

Upper blast zone on Battlefield is waaaaaaaay too close. Characters have the ability to one characters off the top platform.
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ChompChain
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PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:26 am

JMan wrote:
sadly the entire Online is a bug
Is it really? I planned on trying it with friends so I need confirmation that Online is actually really broken so I don't waste their time.
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NyxTheShield
Level 2 CPU


  38

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:43 am

Dry wrote:
But Fleep, why should SH aerials be an "innate attribute"? They aren't intrinsically required or anything. In fact it's impossible to enable a lot of SH aerials (Snake and DK examples) without tearing apart their mobility.

Hype, the idea is that the current land lags are as quick as they would be with l-cancelling. Theoretically. If there's a difference, it shouldn't be noticeable, unless something went wrong.

Thats exactly what i am trying to point, they arent, the game is incredible clunky as it is, you can argue lcancel is a bad mechanic, but you could remove it and make all the aerials have 8 frames and the game would have been epic, now we are back to clunky movement and defensive play.

Heck, falcon can barely string 2 uair at low percents >_>
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Perfect Hell



  Evil Ryu
  8832

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:57 am

I like how Sonic and Lucas are ok when their land lags are the same or slower than Falcon's and Fox's.  Ok fleep.

Manual l-cancelling is never coming back.  There's no debating this.  Even if we did want 7 frame land lags on every aerial permanently, we would do it with automatic land lags, not l-cancels.  The l-cancel mechanic itself was worthless. The only thing up for debate or change is actual landing lags.

You also have to understand that balance is not the only reason for determining a good land lag.  It's about what makes sense.  Bowser's Fair simply should not be the same as Fox's nair.  There are other ways to balance.  Look at Falcon's Dair.  Yes, the land lag is longer now.  But guess what?  Scaling is lower and hitstun got ramped WAY up.  You are guaranteed an easy knee every single time it hits so long as the opponent's percent is under like, 110, unless YOU mess up.  I dont need to lower it's land lag to make that happen.  It makes sense, it's intuitive, it's balanced, and everyone has access to it not just competitive people who know what an l-cancel is.

Dry you should probably try Falcon yourself.  I dont know what Felipe is having trouble with here but his frame data works beautifully.  I even put the controller in the hands of a well known very long time melee veteran exclusively Falcon main and he even loved it.  The only tweaks he needs are possibly to the knockback and stun of up air and nair, but definitely not the land lags.  Heck those two im pretty sure have 7 frame land lag so there isnt even a difference from before.

So here's the point.  L-cancel is not coming back.  Absolutely no chance of this.  Nor are blanket 7 frame land lags.  That's just plain stupid.  I'll bring back the example of Fox and Bowser again.   What will change in the future is how we balance around these intuitive differences.  Land lags can be altered where needed, and other things such as hitstun can be adjusted as needed.  But manual l-cancelling and the idea of one set land lag for all aerials will never come back, and that is final.

Clunky? Defensive? Now you're just whining. Not only has the engine improved in many ways making the game feel far smoother and more responsive than ever before, but the game has also made strides in aggressive play. In fact aggressive metagames was one of the balancing focus'. Projectile play is generally less overpowering. Hitstun was drastically increased. Shieldstun was increased alongside nerfs to the shield such as non-bufferable dodging and longer shield hp recovery and shield drop lag, etc. Jump startup is properly cancellable, so you can do JC grabs and have a decent running grab game. Jab resets and laser resets added. And this is only scratching the surface of ways the engine got smoother. And yet you want to call it clunky because falcon gained like 2 frames of land lag.

Balancing will be tweaked. But your l cancel and blanket land lag mechanics are not coming back. Dont waste your time on it.

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NyxTheShield
Level 2 CPU


  38

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:13 am

Perfect Hell wrote:
I like how Sonic and Lucas are ok when their land lags are the same or slower than Falcon's and Fox's.  Ok fleep.

Manual l-cancelling is never coming back.  There's no debating this.  Even if we did want 7 frame land lags on every aerial permanently, we would do it with automatic land lags, not l-cancels.  The l-cancel mechanic itself was worthless. The only thing up for debate or change is actual landing lags.

You also have to understand that balance is not the only reason for determining a good land lag.  It's about what makes sense.  Bowser's Fair simply should not be the same as Fox's nair.  There are other ways to balance.  Look at Falcon's Dair.  Yes, the land lag is longer now.  But guess what?  Scaling is lower and hitstun got ramped WAY up.  You are guaranteed an easy knee every single time it hits so long as the opponent's percent is under like, 110, unless YOU mess up.  I dont need to lower it's land lag to make that happen.  It makes sense, it's intuitive, it's balanced, and everyone has access to it not just competitive people who know what an l-cancel is.

Dry you should probably try Falcon yourself.  I dont know what Felipe is having trouble with here but his frame data works beautifully.  I even put the controller in the hands of a well known very long time melee veteran exclusively Falcon main and he even loved it.  The only tweaks he needs are possibly to the knockback and stun of up air and nair, but definitely not the land lags.  Heck those two im pretty sure have 7 frame land lag so there isnt even a difference from before.

So here's the point.  L-cancel is not coming back.  Absolutely no chance of this.  Nor are blanket 7 frame land lags.  That's just plain stupid.  I'll bring back the example of Fox and Bowser again.   What will change in the future is how we balance around these intuitive differences.  Land lags can be altered where needed, and other things such as hitstun can be adjusted as needed.  But manual l-cancelling and the idea of one set land lag for all aerials will never come back, and that is final.

Clunky? Defensive?  Now you're just whining.  Not only has the engine improved in many ways making the game feel far smoother and more responsive than ever before, but the game has also made strides in aggressive play.  In fact aggressive metagames was one of the balancing focus'.  Projectile play is generally less overpowering.  Hitstun was drastically increased.  Shieldstun was increased alongside nerfs to the shield such as non-bufferable dodging and longer shield hp recovery and shield drop lag, etc.  Jump startup is properly cancellable, so you can do JC grabs and have a decent running grab game.  Jab resets and laser resets added.  And this is only scratching the surface of ways the engine got smoother.  And yet you want to call it clunky because falcon gained like 2 frames of land lag.

Balancing will be tweaked.  But your l cancel and blanket land lag mechanics are not coming back.  Dont waste your time on it.

0.9Test wasnt clunky, it was smooth, 64 level Smooth, 0.9 is the opposite, it has the clunkyness of 0.7 Crusade and thats purely a mistake of the balancing team.

Look up, i am not the only one who thinks the same, you removed Lcancel and implemented a worse solution.
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Slissith



  Bowser
  2229
  ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:55 am

Alright so I played for a day or so and tried most characters.

I think that this engine is definetely an improvement over all previous engines. For example, in previous demos, if you jumped to get away from your enemy, he could easily get to you and punish you. Now, thanks to conservation of momentum this is no longer possible.

My problems with 0.9 are the shields and the walking speed.

Regarding the shileds, I actually like how they're nerfed to the point where they're rarely used. This makes gameplay more aggresive and forces players to think on their feet more often. However, when I do use a shield, the drop lag is not horrendous but most importantly, the character does not respond to commands that were input before the sheild has dropped fully. This probably is an issue because sheild drop lag is very noticeable.

For example, if the shield is dropping and I press left, the character will not move. This for me, is very annoying. Otherwise, I enjoy the fact of how shields have been nerfed, although drop lag could be reduced.

In regards to walking, some characters walk extremely slowly, which makes their use frustrating, such as Falco and Bomberman, although this may be a problem of adaptation on my part.

In general, some characters feel great (marth, pac-man, luigi) while others are unpleasant to use (falco, bomberman, wright).

In 8.4 and test, character control was pretty precise. This engine is slighty different and the player has to adjust to the conservation of momentum, which causes character control to be less precise, but more believable and satisfying. Perhaps the ideal would be to change the engine to be just slighty more like 8.4 and test so that character control is more precise.

Overall, great job!

EDIT: I forgot to mention; grabs feel absolutely horrible. Their range and speed are extremely lackluster.

_________________
Cobra Bubbles wrote:
Your expectations were too simple and downright stupid.
I mean really? "No character will have their testicles hang out"?
Thanks to you, I had to add two new rules.

VultureDuck wrote:
Crusade is a man's game

Jaklub wrote:
Post count ain't gonna raise itself.

Jaklub wrote:
this count down won't be uploaded to youtube, better enjoy it now.

Lego_Shaq wrote:
please dont think im actually racist

SmashBros._L0ver wrote:
fuck you slissith go to hell Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
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Blab
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PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:49 pm

@Nyx
L-Cancelling is literally one extra button input. The Crusade team just made it so you didn't have to do said input. That's it. You can live without it.
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NyxTheShield
Level 2 CPU


  38

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:52 pm

Blab wrote:
@Nyx
L-Cancelling is literally one extra button input. The Crusade team just made it so you didn't have to do said input. That's it. You can live without it.

Ah, really? then it should be really easy to make combos like this, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE7Xp490B0E

right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlZ-zqNXSdU

Hint: None of the combos you see there are present anymore
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Tempura Shrimp Party
Level 3 CPU


  66

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:19 pm

Yoshi's AI keeps doing extremely light jumps.

HALEUUUUGH ensues.
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Shiruza
Level 5 CPU


  Ganondorf
  476

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:33 pm

It seems as though I am experiencing a graphical error that was not present within the preview footage of 0.9, that being that all of the stages visual assets apart from the foreground elements are not present in-game, instead being replaced by a black screen. Hitboxes and all else appear to be working fine, however, so it appears as though the error is purely graphical.
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HypeConduit
Level 6 CPU


  Klonoa
  872
  XMister_RatburnX

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:45 pm

Perfect Hell wrote:
A lot of stuff woah there:
 

Okay, sorry for repeat suggestions. It's just an important change. Thanks for explaining it though. Under further inspection, you're right. The landing lag really isn't that bad. I made kind of a big deal about nothing. pale

Although Nyx's videos do show off some combos unmatchable in this version, I guess I can live without it.

EDIT:
@Blab L-Canceling in crusade 0.8.4 and 0.9T took away literally all lag, not just some. You would go straight from an aerial move to dashing.
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NyxTheShield
Level 2 CPU


  38

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:02 pm

HypeConduit wrote:
Perfect Hell wrote:
A lot of stuff woah there:
 

Okay, sorry for repeat suggestions. It's just an important change. Thanks for explaining it though. Under further inspection, you're right. The landing lag really isn't that bad. I made kind of a big deal about nothing. pale

Although Nyx's videos do show off some combos unmatchable in this version, I guess I can live without it.

EDIT:
@Blab L-Canceling in crusade 0.8.4 and 0.9T took away literally all lag, not just some. You would go straight from an aerial move to dashing.

I guess i will keep playign 0.8.4, SSF 2 and Smash 64 xD
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Tempura Shrimp Party
Level 3 CPU


  66

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:05 pm

Whenever Pichu is one of the characters, Final Smashes are automatically disabled for some reason.
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Perfect Hell



  Evil Ryu
  8832

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:09 pm

The point is still somehow being missed. You do realize that if i wanted to, i could make every single 0.8.4 combo ever work in the new demo without making even one change to land lag? Land lag is not the issue. It's momentum physics, and the rest varies case to case such as hitstun. Land lag needs no change.

Also l-cancelling in old versions did not take away all lag, it reduced lag to 7. 7, 8, and 9 are the most common land lag numbers by far throughout the current demo.

@Sliss
Momentum is a huge wip. It will continue to improve until we reach the ideal point or the closest we can get.
Shield drop lag, i could reduce that lag a little. Are you saying you also can't buffer actions during that lag? If that's the case, it shouldnt be.
Walk speeds and fast fall speeds are probably the least investigated parts of mobility overall, they pretty much just rely on a formula. This is a project i could undertake in the future.
Grab ranges got a hard nerf, but i made sure in all cases that the grab will connect so long as the character's hand does. No more teleporting into their hold. However in some cases i plan to buff this, such as Kirby or basically anyone with small arms. As for speed, the problem you're likely running into is running grabs, because grabs are actually the same exact speed they were in previous demos. Running grabs and JC grabs are present in console smash and work the same way here. When you do a grab out of run, it is noticeably slower but also has more reach. Though, without a real running grab animation, i could see how this would feel less intuitive whereas the same exact process on console you wouldnt blink at. Perhaps the amount slower these grabs are could be reduced as to be less intrusive. Something to look into later. Although i am firmly of the opinion that, like shields, grabs were overpowered as fuck in older versions. So, both have been hit hard, now some tweaks will fall into place to make sure they dont feel clunky.

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Perfect Hell

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Blab
Guest



PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:14 pm

Nyx wrote:
I guess i will keep playign 0.8.4, SSF 2 and Smash 64 xD
lel ur so funny cuz u put ex dee hah
Seriously, go. Instead of nitpicking and whining about crap on the forums, go pester McLeod or play Smash 64. It's not like anyone's forcing you to stay here and whine, and it's not like we wanted you here to begin with.


Anyway, can anyone confirm if online actually works? Someone posted saying online was flat-out broken but I don't have anyone to test it with.




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SP



  Crash Bandicoot
  3843
  cellularSP

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:16 pm

Tempura Shrimp Party wrote:
Whenever Pichu is one of the characters, Final Smashes are automatically disabled for some reason.

I think that's on purpose, I'm not sure if Pichu has a final smash himself.
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Dry



  4607

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:18 pm

Huh PH you're right. Both are 7, on dropbox at least.

Fleep, Falcon's uair and nair haven't changed since 0.9T.

Blab, please. Sure he doesn't choose his words carefully, but any feedback is still feedback.


Last edited by Dry on Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Perfect Hell



  Evil Ryu
  8832

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:18 pm

@SP
That's not on purpose and i couldve sworn we fixed that ahead of time...actually made a point of doing so.  Anyway there will be a patch coming soon, so everyone keep the bug reports rolling.

@Dry
And other than bugfixes over the last 24 hours, everything in the public release for character files is identical to dropbox of course.

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Tempura Shrimp Party
Level 3 CPU


  66

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:26 pm

SO MANY BUGS! Pac-Man is unaffected by asteroids or invader shots in Outer Space.
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NyxTheShield
Level 2 CPU


  38

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:28 pm

Dry wrote:
Huh PH you're right. Both are 7, on dropbox at least.

Fleep, Falcon's uair and nair haven't changed since 0.9T.

Something else changed because they dont combo anymore.

Also ChompChain, i contribute to the game, i will not go away XD
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Perfect Hell



  Evil Ryu
  8832

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:30 pm

Tempura Shrimp Party wrote:
SO MANY BUGS! Pac-Man is unaffected by asteroids or invader shots in Outer Space.
I just tried that on the public demo, he was hurt by them.  Whatever caused this, it wasn't simply the character choice.

Also fleep they do combo, i was easily able to pull off several nairs to uair to knee.

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Tempura Shrimp Party
Level 3 CPU


  66

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:33 pm

Perfect Hell wrote:
Tempura Shrimp Party wrote:
SO MANY BUGS! Pac-Man is unaffected by asteroids or invader shots in Outer Space.
I just tried that on the public demo, he was hurt by them.  Whatever caused this, it wasn't simply the character choice.

For me, Pac was the only one not hurt, other characters reacted as normal.
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Perfect Hell



  Evil Ryu
  8832

PostSubject: Re: New 0.9 bugs, fresh!~   Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:34 pm

Actually fleep part of the problem is that you can smash di out of first hit nair, so that can be nerfed. As for Nair/Uair, hitstun and kb are both great for combos right now and land lag are 7. Perhaps slightly raising Uair's angle combined with a SDI nerf to first hit of Nair would do it.

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