So how is SSF2v0.9b

Haven't had a chance to play

It seems decent. Some characters had a truckload of changes, for better or for worse, and made the game play pretty fresh. Ichigo and Sora feel so much stronger that I feel dirty playing them, but playing Chibi-Robo is a tour of it's own. Since he can pocket projectiles, a la Villager, he can be an extreme threat to projectile users. He can absorb B. Mage's charged f.smash, which makes me question whether it should stay as a projectile. Also, thanks to Sonic's new s.special, I can bet on a lot of people starting to drop him.

Seems like thanks to the news of the newcomer, people are updating their crusade DLC votes to make room for Isaac. Seems a bit impatient, if you ask me.

tl;dr, Extremely fun, but still some weird balancing choices. I recommend giving it a go to test out the changed, as well as new, characters.

Naruto is utterly broken. Ichigo and Black Mage are very close seconds. While much better than previous versions, this version still can't seem to escape their poor balancing trends.

MercuryHg34 wrote:

Naruto is utterly broken. Ichigo and Black Mage are very close seconds. While much better than previous versions, this version still can't seem to escape their poor balancing trends.

I actually neglected to try Naruto thanks to lack of interest. I know Black Mage and Ichigo are ridiculous. Is there anywhere possible I could find the full listed changes of .9b?

I don't think so, only reliable way to find out at this point is to become a backroomer (which I plan to, just so I have something to discuss and hopefully make suggestions to the balancers). Basically, the run-down of Naruto is like this.

+Side B is just flat-out broken. Low startup and endlag, travels far and fast in an arc, can't be power-shielded (activates on shield anyway), sets up for whatever Naruto wants provided the player can read DI and keep the foe's percent in mind.

+Aerial Down B covers a ton of space, halting many approaches while aiding his own. Also great for edgeguarding.

+Dash attack combos into tons of stuff, most notably up tilt, Nair, and Grab.

+Nair resets are ridiculous.

+Crazy combo game in general, even by SSF2's standards.

+Reliable forward throw chain-grab, as long as Nair resets are thrown in to extend it.

+Plenty of fast kill moves in Bair, Dsmash, Fair (for gimping), and Rasengan/Rasen-Shuriken.

+Overall movement is exceptional, runs fast and has good air speed as well as an epic shorthop game and a roll that makes him invisible.

+Up B leaves a clone on the ground when used on stage, and stuns the foe for long enough to follow up with just about anything.

-Terrible recovery.

tl;dr: Naruto has an answer for everything, unbeatable stage control, ridiculous combos, and good kill power with only a bad recovery (which isn't even the game's worst). Ichigo and Fox are the only characters who don't have a very hard time fighting him, but they still only have even matchups at best.

Black Mage's sweet spot on the down air hits even if the opponent is invincible.

C_Mill24 wrote:

Black Mage's sweet spot on the down air hits even if the opponent is invincible.

Lol yep, so dumb.

Sora is a ton of fun, but i actually would say he's not a top tier. He can chase well and combo pretty well, but he lacks kill power to the extent that it prevents him from being a good character. If you're Sora, your opponent isn't dying until a minimum of 150%. That's insane. Top it off, this new side B goes helpless so if you miss and end up off-stage, you're dead. Pretty easy to have that happen because it travels like, more than half an FD distance. That also means you cant use it off-stage to take opponents to the blastline, because they can just air dodge, fast fall under, or jump over and now you're dead. You also can only choose to change it's travel angle at the very beginning, so when you chase someone on stage you pretty much have to choose to go straight to avoid hitting the ground before you reach them, and now when they dodge it, you are stuck going straight and end up off-stage and dead.

I've adapted to Sora quite well at this point, trying my hardest to make him viable. I rarely suicide now, ive got the tech chases and combos, etc. But he still can't kill, and dies super early himself. His recovery also can't sweetspot the edge and is easily beaten by any attack, so he gets wrecked off-stage. Unfortunate, because he's such a fun character to play. He's the type who makes you feel like you're doing awesome the entire time, but then you look at the score and actually have to remind yourself that you're somehow currently losing.

Black Mage is so broken. He actually doesnt do too great on Naruto, but in most other matchups he's crazy good. He just has options for everything, and crazy combo and kill games to match.

Ichigo is also stupid good. Best kill power ever, and that's important in a game that has very inconsistent killing. Great combos, great mobility tricks and his sword slashes are not nearly as slow as the SSF2 devs would have you believe. His sword range is really good as well, and somehow his Side B actually beats pretty much every move in the game. Only moves that have a constant hitbox can beat it, as there's like one frame of non-invincibility before he slashes.

My preliminary tier groupings (? indicates i havent really gotten enough exposure to that character, and am guessing based on what little i've seen/played);

top tier
- Naruto
- Black Mage
- Ichigo
- Link
- Lloyd
- Pikachu
- Yoshi
- Fox?
- Tails
- Kirby?
- Ness?

Still good, but not as good;
- Sora
- ZSS
- DK
- Mario
- Zelda
- C. Falcon
- Sonic?
- Peach?
- Wario? (might be broken tier, not enough exposure yet)
- Goku
- Meta Knight?
- Samus
- Mega Man?

Bottom tier;
- Marth
- Chibi Robo?
- Sheik
- Jiggs
- Bomberman?

I know a lot of that is going to be off from the eventual real tier list. This list is extremely preliminary, and like half of the characters i havent even explored enough to say. This game's balance isn't too bad, it actually reminds me of Project: M. You have a top tier grouping that is way too good and full of really gimmicky stuff that's difficult and frustrating for the opponent to deal with. Then you have the group under that, who are really good but lack the gimmicky broken bull shit. And then you have the characters who are just lacking in various areas, the bottom tier.

I only played for 10 minutes or so, and I have to say that although this is the best SSF2 demo yet, it still feels underwhelming in it's core.

I played for a couple of matches and I really couldn't get over the controls. Character control in general is lackluster, whereas in crusade it's pretty precise.

Also, Sora AI, God Tier

Just played a match on clock tower and Link just killed himself 3 times trying to get to me

don't think we have to worry about AI in crusade guys

StayPuft wrote:

Just played a match on clock tower and Link just killed himself 3 times trying to get to me

don't think we have to worry about AI in crusade guys

If you're basing the quality of Crusade's AI off of SSF2's, yes, I suppose.

Perfect Hell wrote:

Bottom Tier
Bomberman

I actually really like the guy. His lowest charge bombs are great for stunning opponents and blasting them towards you, his forward tilt and his bair have cool knockback, his up special has great recovery distance and if you get someone at the right angle you can trap them, and if you get pretty much anything above ~80% and use either of your horizontal throws on them on the side of the stage it's almost a guaranteed KO.

Also, am I the only one who's realized that almost every up tilt in the game is the same?

I had a question mark next to him because i have no idea what Bomberman can do. I just know the one time i played as him and also every time i fight his AI, it's really underwhelming. I realize that he might in actuality be top tier for all i know.

Perfect Hell wrote:

I had a question mark next to him because i have no idea what Bomberman can do.  I just know the one time i played as him and also every time i fight his AI, it's really underwhelming.  I realize that he might in actuality be top tier for all i know.

As we can already recall, SSF2's AI isn't much to impress.

HypeConduit wrote:

Perfect Hell wrote:

I had a question mark next to him because i have no idea what Bomberman can do.  I just know the one time i played as him and also every time i fight his AI, it's really underwhelming.  I realize that he might in actuality be top tier for all i know.

As we can already recall, SSF2's AI isn't much to impress.

Neither is Crusades. i.e. Donkey Kong in 0.9TEST.

Well, Bomberman can really make you scared tosing bombs around, and they are good for surprising oponents off guard. Bomberman's combo game is good, But not as much as say Naruto or Sora, and his recovery is ok as well, not as much startup as before

Also, i don't really agree with Marth being low tier. Yes, he may not have the greatest combo game, but it's still one of his main ways of gimping, and since Dair is mad easy to tipper, the ken combo becomes really great in this game, giving Marth ways to do early kills easily.

If you ask me, Marth should be in the middle, but almost anything else is alright

Perfect Hell wrote:

I just know the one time i played as him and also every time i fight his AI, it's really underwhelming.

I once made a level 9 Sora and a level 1 Mario fight. The Mario won. I wouldn't trust the AI in the game too much if I were you.

It's not that im going by the AI, it's that i find his moveset underwhelming from what i've seen. I've seen human gameplay, i've tried him out once or twice myself, and of course, i've seen the AI. I dont disbelieve that he might be good, i just havent seen that potential out of him yet.

Marth is awful. Combo game is OK at best. Down Air does NOT spike properly, unless the opponent is behind you. Fair does not send at the proper angle to Ken. Ken combo doesnt work 95% of the time, at least not the way it was done in Melee. I've landed a true ken only once so far, and that was by using momentum and a total sourspot to actually overtake my opponent in the air and hit them with the backside of down air. And this is coming from someone who lands the Ken more often than most marth's do in Melee and P:M both. Ken combo is one of my personal playstyle staples, and i can tell you with certainty that it feels absolutely terrible in SSF2. His side special is bad, but that's nothing new for Marth. His Nair can't kill until like 200, so dumb.His throw game isn't nearly as good as it used to be in Melee, his grab range actually makes sense to the sprite reach, which is a HUGE nerf. Combine the new poor(ish) grab range with bad throws and you have a massively nerfed character, considering his grab game was among his most important and prominent aspects in Melee. Fair also doesnt combo as long as it should. Up B also doesnt seem to have it's horizontal killer sweetspot, though that might just be that i havent correctly done it yet. His sword range is also smaller than Melee, it's more like Brawl. Now, there re certainly things they did right, like his Fsmash (though it does feel a bit slower), Up B recovery distance, Side B recovery, Fair does combo somewhat, Bair is good, Uair is good, Utilt is pretty good but certainly not Melee good, Ftilt seems good. But that's about it. Oh yeah, and D tilt lost a lot of interrupt frames, meaning you cant followup off a hit-confirm. Huge loss on his spacing game.

What i think of some of the characters (prepare yourself for a long post):

Mario - Despite the significantly better sprites, i prefer Mario in 0.9a. Nerfed horizontal recovery, but better vertical recovery, slightly weaker combo ability and a slower and harder to land Fair (at least how i view it). Mario is still good though, just imo weaker than 0.9a Mario. Mid-High Tier imo.

Link - Holy s*** did this guy get an overhaul. Link in 0.9a was crap, almost no reliable combos, bad recovery, projectile game was weak and was very slow (probably the slowest in the game). In 0.9b, ALL of that is gone and replaced with good stuff. His grab game is extremely dangerous (dthrow can chain everyone and uthrow can chain fast fallers), has better mobility, his combo potential significantly improved, his boomerang is one of the scariest projectiles in the game (being the Brawl Minus boomerang) and his recovery can be one of the longest in the game. I can safely say Link is one of the best characters in 0.9b and probably the most buffed character from 0.9a to 0.9b. Probably up in the Top 10.

Ichigo - Way better than 0.9a. Ichigio Side B can confirm into pretty much anything, his fair can give him a lot of mobility due to the momentum wavedash he gets and his dtilt is one of the best pokes in the game. His Dthrow is imo, the best dthrow in the game and one of the best throws overall: the thing can chain grab, is one of Ichigo's most reliable combo setups and is one of the deadliest spikes in the game when used at the edge. His vertical recovery is garbage though and a well placed Meteor Smash can KO him though. Top Tier due to how many options Ichigo has of mobility, comboing and KOing.

Naruto - A combo beast. His Side B is one of the best in the game since it travels in an arc and is an extremely easy hit confirm. Rasen Shuriken is one of the best projectiles in the game. His smashes are good and has one of the best grab games in the game. I wouldn't call him top tier because of terrible his recovery is, but he is still a very good character.

Captain Falcon - Nerfed a little bit. The slightly altered physics hurt his combo game a little bit and his recovery has less distance than before. Still has deadly combos, dair is a very solid spike, a good grab game and his Falcon Punch is FAR more usable than before. Mid High tier.

Chibi Robo - One of the best characters in the game hands down. His grab game is ridiculous, is pretty fast, one of the best horizontal recoveries in the game, can destroy projectile users by collecting them (Link is screwed against him), small and pretty heavy making him VERY hard to KO and his uair is ridiculously strong. Easily top tier imo.

Marth - Feels really fluid but his dair is hard to spike with it. His combos are still very deadly and has the best juggles in the game or among the best. His recovery is actually pretty good due to SSF2 physics. His range is shorter though. High-Mid imo.

Zero Suit Samus - Really good character. Has great combos (Down Smash + Down Special on a ledge is an easy KO), her Uthrow is one of the best chain grabs in the game (against Fox especially), is very mobile, has a good recovery, extremely dangerous air game and a deadly meteor with her dair.

Samus - Better than 0.9a. Her combos are longer imo, her Charge Shot is very strong, her dair is a lot easier to land, her dthrow can lead to Fair + grab making it a very reliable damage racker. Zair is a lot better and has better aerials.

Black Mage needs to be nerfed. I love using him, but he needs to be nerfed.

Guys, I cannot into combos. Do you guys make them up yourselves or do you get them from the internet?

C_Mill24 wrote:

Black Mage needs to be nerfed. I love using him, but he needs to be nerfed.

They also need to change the animation for his side special back to the original one because it looks so lame right now.

Perfect Hell wrote:

Marth is awful.  Combo game is OK at best.  Down Air does NOT spike properly, unless the opponent is behind you.  Fair does not send at the proper angle to Ken.  Ken combo doesnt work 95% of the time, at least not the way it was done in Melee.  I've landed a true ken only once so far, and that was by using momentum and a total sourspot to actually overtake my opponent in the air and hit them with the backside of down air.  And this is coming from someone who lands the Ken more often than most marth's do in Melee and P:M both.  Ken combo is one of my personal playstyle staples, and i can tell you with certainty that it feels absolutely terrible in SSF2.  His side special is bad, but that's nothing new for Marth.  His Nair can't kill until like 200, so dumb.His throw game isn't nearly as good as it used to be in Melee, his grab range actually makes sense to the sprite reach, which is a HUGE nerf.  Combine the new poor(ish) grab range with bad throws and you have a massively nerfed character, considering his grab game was among his most important and prominent aspects in Melee.  Fair also doesnt combo as long as it should.  Up B also doesnt seem to have it's horizontal killer sweetspot, though that might just be that i havent correctly done it yet.  His sword range is also smaller than Melee, it's more like Brawl.  Now, there re certainly things they did right, like his Fsmash (though it does feel a bit slower), Up B recovery distance, Side B recovery, Fair does combo somewhat, Bair is good, Uair is good, Utilt is pretty good but certainly not Melee good, Ftilt seems good.  But that's about it.  Oh yeah, and D tilt lost a lot of interrupt frames, meaning you cant followup off a hit-confirm.  Huge loss on his spacing game.

Well, i do understand the what you mean, his range is short compared Melee, his grab has been reduced, and that Dair is kind of hard to do when facing the oponent, however, he does have some uses for grabs, and his edgeguarding game is great, especially Dtilt and Fsmash

Marth's side special has always been bad, but it is particulally harder to use here, especially if the oponent tries to SDI or DI out of it, since it doesn't really suck in the oponents, like it does in Brawl, or maybe even Melee

And yeah, Ken combo is NOT mad easy as i said before, i take that back, however, Dair, as you said, is easy to land if the oponent is behind you, and actually landing a tipped Dair pretty much gets the kill, which makes Marth more threatening on the edge

(Am i the only one who thinks Marth's counter is really unreliable? It can't be done on reaction, you have to do it on prediction, and it doesn't work quite well for edgeguarding)

Sven the Turtle wrote:

Guys, I cannot into combos. Do you guys make them up yourselves or do you get them from the internet?

It's a bit of both, the veterans from console games have their own signature combos and other attributes that we as competitive players already know about. The SSF2 newcomers we mostly make up combos by experimenting and finding out what options are easiest to start them with and what options are easiest to follow up with after landing that first hit. Much of combos in general is reaction and prediction, knowing where the foe will DI and taking their weight/fall speed into account to determine how your combo deviates from the "standard" version of that combo.

That's easiest to demonstrate with chain-grabs. Ichigo's down throw can chaingrab someone like Mario very easily, DK even more so. But as soon as you have to do it to Fox, the timing changes or a jab in between is needed to set them up again until higher percents. Against Jigglypuff it's even harder because they are floaty, so it won't even actually work for as long as it would on heavier characters if at all.

[9:02:46 AM] F2U | TheBlackMystery: Anybody wanna online???
[9:03:11 AM] Detta: sure
[9:03:18 AM] F2U | TheBlackMystery: Ill make the room
[9:03:26 AM] Detta: k
[9:03:40 AM] F2U | TheBlackMystery: high or low latancy?
[9:03:46 AM] F2U | TheBlackMystery: latency
[9:03:52 AM] Detta: uh
[9:03:58 AM] Detta: i have a good connection so
[9:04:01 AM] Detta: whichever one that means
[9:04:03 AM] Detta: idr
[9:04:13 AM] F2U | TheBlackMystery: ok its ready
[9:04:57 AM] Proto: lmao detta
[9:05:04 AM] F2U | TheBlackMystery: detta?
[9:05:07 AM] Detta: what
[9:05:14 AM] F2U | TheBlackMystery: are u in yet?
[9:05:19 AM] Detta: i don't have online yet
[9:05:28 AM] Proto: lmao gg bm
[9:05:30 AM] F2U | TheBlackMystery: .........
[9:05:34 AM] F2U | TheBlackMystery: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
[9:05:38 AM] Detta: i am literally dying irl
[9:05:45 AM] Detta: from laughter

0.9b in a nutshell

Falcon's Knee Smash hitbox is odd. It seems to be jutted out like a pseudo disjointed hitbox, while the inside of the knee is sour.

I didn't even know there was a topic here. also Ichigo's side b isn't that broken.
You can:
- walk forward before he slashes
- Spot dodge
- Out prioritize the move with something

It's pretty easy to deal with once you get the hang of it.

who has online here btw?

Traweezie wrote:

I didn't even know there was a topic here. also Ichigo's side b isn't that broken.
You can:
- walk forward before he slashes
- Spot dodge
- Out prioritize the move with something

It's pretty easy to deal with once you get the hang of it.

who has online here btw?

I don't, though I heard the online is balls and extremely glitchy.

C_Mill24 wrote:

Traweezie wrote:

I didn't even know there was a topic here. also Ichigo's side b isn't that broken.
You can:
- walk forward before he slashes
- Spot dodge
- Out prioritize the move with something

It's pretty easy to deal with once you get the hang of it.

who has online here btw?

I don't, though I heard the online is balls and extremely glitchy.

yeah crusade online is better but flash 2 is more fair since it's server based. I guess mcleod is working on the online code to not be as buggy along with the servers

Traweezie wrote:

Ichigo's side b isn't that broken.
You can:
- walk forward before he slashes
- Spot dodge
- Out prioritize the move with something

It's pretty easy to deal with once you get the hang of it.

No, it's pretty broken. You get like one frame (technically 2 for reaction due to SSF2 running at 30 fps) to hit him before the hitbox appears, any earlier and he's invincible. It is largely disjointed, very fast, and Ichigo can control how far he moves before re-appearing. And it is an alternative recovery move. And it combos into stuff due to low endlag. I have seen very few other moves in smash history that are as broken as that.