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 SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)

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ShadowHunter
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PostSubject: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:49 pm

ShadowHunter here. Some of you may know me, some of you don't. I am a former expansion creator for SSF2 and one of main things I was known for on the Expansion Forums was creating movesets.

I have been studying Crappy Capture Device's videos and found out that SSB has a certain and unique pattern in creating their movesets. Super Smash Brother's movesets, without the clone and custom, they are actually creative, original, and is often well made for different characters from different series. If one knows the moveset style well, they are able to create original and unique movesets. There are a lot of things to learn about the rules of this style since the procedures are complex and requires decent amount of thinking. However, I ensure you that your movesets will improve and there will be something to be proud about.

Also I recommand to you guys to watch CrappyCaptureDevice's videos on Smash Bros history to get a perspective on how SSBM and SSBB create their movesets.
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0h0eJWnFsVttgN_Vj72rAA

Disclaimer:
My theory on movesets can be controversial as this has recieved criticism by some members. If you don't like this mindset of making movesets, I respect that. Think of this as some kind of religon or political party. There is a large group of people who likes this, yet there is a group of people who doesn't like it.

This is basically a journal of my mentality and thinking process on how to make good and unique expansions. This is still in development and is basically research on how SSB movesets work and how they can be used to create amazing movesets. I will show you some of my work and express my current mentality in developing it, so don't think of this as a "you have to do this to be good" type of thing. It's your choice on whether to follow this or not.




Now that that's out of the way let this class begin. Give me opinions on what you think about it.

Lesson 1: Moveset Elements
Spoiler:
 

Lesson 2: Using the Attack Description Method
Spoiler:
 

Lesson 3: Difference between Special and Smash attack
Spoiler:
 

Moveset Researching Tips:
Spoiler:
 

Further understanding of the Relation Method:
Spoiler:
 

Minor Moves:
Spoiler:
 



I will be adding more later lessons later on


Last edited by ShadowHunter on Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sven the Turtle
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:54 pm

I remember you were super-famous for this across all the forums I knew you on. The best part is that it's really well made so you don't even have to change it at all to spread your knowledge to the masses Razz
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ShadowHunter
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:11 pm

[More space just in case I need it]
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ShadowHunter
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:11 pm

[More space just in case I need it]
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ShadowHunter
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:13 pm

Sven the Turtle wrote:
I remember you were super-famous for this across all the forums I knew you on. The best part is that it's really well made so you don't even have to change it at all to spread your knowledge to the masses Razz
Hey thanks! Yeah I really enjoyed seeing people improving their moveset skills.

I am hoping this would help moveset development amoung the SSB Crusade community, would be pretty cool if this influenced the moveset creators making the characters in Crusade.
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:36 pm

I can't take credit for many of the movesets currently in Crusade, though I can take credit for almost every moveset from here on out, as I've made them already and they've been confirmed amongst the team.  Obviously I can't go into details about unconfirmed characters, just putting it out there for the sake of my credibility.

I think you have good methods here, though i'm really not fond of "borrowing" unless nothing else is possible, which is almost never the case.  There are a few exceptions, but for the most part a character's in-game stuff can cover every single input of their moveset.  At least that's what I've found.

I also give you some credit for being able to make a good moveset standard using SSB as a source, which historically has awful movesets.  Sure, there are examples of some good stuff they've done but let's be real, on the whole the series has terrible movesets.  For example, sure Ness and Lucas' specials actually do have plausible references, but are they core techniques to those characters and their gameplay?  No, and could not be further from it.  Then there's ZSS' paralyzer - you give giant stun blasts (dsmash) and a laser whip based off of a single concept image of a game that's not even out yet which only showed a picture of the gun and gave no implications whatsoever as to what the gun would be capable of.  And then that gun ended up not being a stun laser whip in said game when it was released.  Literally the dumbest moveset in the game.

Ok, Toon Link plays faster than Link.  Cool, that might be because of the reason you gave and if so, props to them on that choice.  However, Toon Link is a clone of Link in many ways when there was so much more they could have done.  Where's the Skull Hammer?  Pegasus Boots?  I could give you a very long list of things TL should have done but doesn't.

So point being I like your methods but i can't agree with you that SSB doesn't have terrible movesets.

Small disclaimer, I know very little of the Mother series and am going by what some friends who played the games have said.  If I'm wrong on those, point still stands and I could give you plenty more examples that I am familiar with.

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ShadowHunter
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:59 pm

Trust me, I agree with you that there are many movesets that aren't so great in SSB. Obvious ones are clones (we remade Toon Link's Expansion moveset here http://web.archive.org/web/20121206141446/http://ssf2expansions.motionforum.net/t348-toon-link-legend-of-zelda  )

I am pretty much against clones and my future lessons gives ways on how to avoid making characters like Dr. Mario, Falco, Pichu, Roy, Lucus, etc (fixed his moveset for another expansion), and people like that. I also do not like the whip from Zero Suit Samus. And there are some moves which I think are useless in the game (I am a strong supporter of Project M)

But the main point is that yes, I know, SSB's moveset is not perfect and I actually encourage people to recoginze the bad parts of SSB and avoid them like plague. However what this tutorial does is that it analyzes the well-developed characters (like Link, Marth, Ike, Kirby, Fox, etc) and explains the methods that made them really great. Notice that I do not list Toon Link as an example in my tutorials, but I do mention the great characters like Marth and Fox. It also stresses out that you should both consider gameplay and the move origins when making a moveset. It stresses out that you should not ignore any of them and make sure that both are good.

And I want to teach you guys on how to replicate those great movesets in your characters. Don't pull off a Toon Link or Lucus, pull of something great and use the strong methods from SSB and only the strong methods to come up with your movesets. This tutorial will teach you the methods and you  will use your judgement on how you want to use those methods and how it can be used the right way.
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:12 pm

So basically we're in agreement. Though i only mentioned ZSS and Toon Link because you actually did in the lessons, lol.

Well, if you want to get an idea of what the quality of our future movesets look like, check out this moveset I made (not confirming or de-confirming whether this character is on our roster, I made this moveset back when the roster was public);

Warrior of Light (Dissidia/FF1)
Spoiler:
 

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MercuryHg34

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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:08 am

A while ago I also came up with some movesets for characters that were potentially going to be added as DLC, I worked on this one collaboratively with my brother.

Zero (Complete) (Credit shared between AzureLight12 and myself)
Spoiler:
 

Almost every input (not just moves) of Zero's is from an ability or move he had in all of his MMX appearances, you'll find similar representation across both my movesets and Perfecthell4's movesets.
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C_Mill24
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:39 am

SHADOW HUNTER!? Haven't seen you in a while!
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ShadowHunter
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:49 pm

For Warrior of Light, that's a pretty good moveset though I see that the moveset has heavy reliance on Dissidia. I would recommend trying to add more reference from the original game to the specials so that there could be more nolstalgia for those who have played the original games but not Dissidia. Not to mention I am doing my best to avoid Dissidia for my Cecil moveset.

And the Zero moveset is good (though I don't know too much about Megaman to give more accurate critique)

But the purpose of these tutorials are to help those with characters who doesn't have a myraid of moves from multiple games where one can easily form many combination of movesets. The purpose of this is to help those suffering from moveset limitations or other conditions where forming a good moveset doesn't come as easily.


And awesome to see again C_Mill24 and Sven the Turtle!

Also I have a new update! (Sorry for the bump, but I was a bit busy so I couldn't post here as often :/ )

Minor Moves:
Spoiler:
 
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:54 pm

Except that i used every single move that ever was available to the original WoL in my moveset...possibly left out one or two that wouldn't make sense in smash but even then im pretty sure i found ways, such as clever use of Ruse and the Guard command. Yes there's more Dissidia, but that's solely because he had more attacks in Dissidia. IIRC not a single move from either game was left out.

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ShadowHunter
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:17 pm

And that is where moveset innovation comes into play.

For example, Marth is a character where in the games, where he basically only had one attack with his sword. However, the Smash series came up with creative ideas to bypass that, such as using the Attack Description element to make an entire moveset of four specials and a final smash that are completely canon.

You say that you used every single move that was avaliable, but the question is did you really? You mainly used the moves that were on the surface and obvious to find by limiting yourself to what you see on his list of attacks. But you are not digging beyond the surface of what you see. That is what many people tends to run into this barrier, and limit themselves to a limited set of moveset options. But the good moveset creators break this barrier and think outside of the box, scraping up every single resource to come up with something more innovative that is unique and maybe even awesome. Marth (along with many others) is a pretty good example of this kind of innovation.

The reason that good movesets are able to come up with things that not many think about because they innovate and think beyond on what everyone sees. Look at Marth and his Brawl History . The origins of his neutral special, side special, up special, and down special all came from something that was not in his set of attacks (he only had one) but came from ideas and moves that came from and followed the four moveset elements. It's pretty hard to say that just any Fire Emblem fan could come up with his moveset with deep origins like that. I could say the same thing for Fox, not many people would would come up with the idea of basing his attacks from his Arwing. They would be looking at what is obviously there to them and probably choose foot-soldier weapons for Fox, instead of digging deeper and come up with something more unique and innovative. For both of these characters, you had to strongly exercise the concepts of the four moveset elements.

So I say no, you did not use every single move. You used every single move that was on the Final Fantasy wiki that he can preform, but did you use innovation and the four moveset elements to come up with the hidden moves that's beyond the surface and the obvious? The moves you need to form the perfect moveset is there, but you just haven't innovated enough and dug up more information / knowledge to come up with these unique and amazing moves that not many would be able to come up with.
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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:42 pm

Did you seriously just make wild assumptions about the research I put into that moveset?  You've got to be kidding me.

- Most experienced moveset crafter on this forum other than possibly c_mill, going by what is posted here in this forum
- Makes the majority of the movesets for Crusade going forward (not the ones currently in game, i wasnt around for most of those, you'll see my work in coming versions though)
- Always put insane amounts of research into almost everything i say and do on forum, evident in every discussion and argument i've ever made on this forum
- One of the biggest final fantasy fans on this forum

There's actually no need to innovate "hidden moves" when a character's possibilities actually do complete a moveset on their own.  I find it surprising that you don't also question Zero's moveset, which is an identical case.

When i make a moveset, I scour the character's related wiki's, some gaming websites (such as gamefaqs to get full game movelists), gameplay videos, cutscene compilation videos to see everything the character has done outside gameplay, and even look up fan movesets on youtube and smashboards just to be 100% certain i didnt miss anything important or some cool creative opportunities.

Don't ever make the mistake of downplaying the time and effort I put into the things I do here.  Especially not when it comes to doing research.

Now when it comes to innovating, as you can clearly see not only was there no room left with which to make up imaginary moves (and using things with real references always comes first) since his possible moves actually take up a full complete moveset, but i actually DID do some creative stuff.  I made moves work out of things you would not normally consider for a moveset, such as the "Defend" command (a tactical command that is in no way meant to become an attack possibility), Ruse, Saber, and other things that you would think don't work in a fighting game setting.  I even offered an interesting optional Chocobo gimmick, as a nod to the character's old presence on our roster.  Again, stop making assumptions.

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HypeConduit
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:34 pm

ShadowHunter, if you're so ridiculously anal about creativity in movesets, why in HELL would you use Marth as your example illustration? When I think of a moveset that really "digs deep", I think of Game & Watch. Or Zelda and Sheik! As long as a character has a sword, they're usually set for at least half their moveset (Based on what I know about smash).

Why would somebody EVER go out of their way to make obscure moves for the character? That would only make the players more confused, because most of the time, these silly, pretend moves are done completely inaccurately. The reason all of Snake's moves aren't absolutely on target with his games is because if they molded him around stealth, he would be undoubtedly shred to pieces by speed and even heavy characters. The last stain Smash needs is a handful full of gimmicky, hard to operate, high-risk low-reward oddballs with references only 2% of players will even recognize. The diversity and obscurity in movesets are what made PSASBR eat the dust for most SSB fans. (Besides sweaty, unmetered nintendoism)
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Smash King
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:40 pm


Damn, some of you guys are kinda taking it a bit too the heart, don't you think?
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SP

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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:02 pm

Smash bros is srs bsns
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HypeConduit
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:28 pm

I will say I'm taking it a bit personally, because I have a friend back home that has made like 6 Dante movesets for smash and allstars trying to represent all of his moves from 1-4, because he bitterly hates DMC:DMC. One of the movesets even required 3/4 gameplay mechanic changes, 1 or 2 being JUST for Dante. Oh, and he was OP.

So when people make characters solely based around their "homage" or "accuracy", they make their actual functionality and balance secondary.

More likely than not, though, I'm probably just snowballing on something I shouldn't, so... *Ahem*
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:58 pm

Perfect Hell wrote:
Did you seriously just make wild assumptions about the research I put into that moveset?  You've got to be kidding me.

- Most experienced moveset crafter on this forum other than possibly c_mill, going by what is posted here in this forum
- Makes the majority of the movesets for Crusade going forward (not the ones currently in game, i wasnt around for most of those, you'll see my work in coming versions though)
- Always put insane amounts of research into almost everything i say and do on forum, evident in every discussion and argument i've ever made on this forum
- One of the biggest final fantasy fans on this forum
An experienced list-maker. What a force to be reckoned with.
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MercuryHg34

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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:47 am

>Claims PH4 didn't put enough research/creativity into his movesets
>Uses Marth, an almost entirely Sakurai'd character that perfectly exemplifies Sakurai's lack of creativity in movesets, as an example to prove his point

Not seeing the logic here...
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ShadowHunter
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:06 am

My apologies, what I said was meant to be a suggestion to help you spark up more ideas to expand the moveset. I am guessing its my lack of knowledge of Final Fantasy I that had me underestimate the amount of research and effort made into the moveset. But yeah, it's awesome to see how much effort you put into planning out the movesets then, most people don't really do that.

Maybe its preference in prorities but I always consider the original games, use innovative to scape up any ideas to represent the original games even further, and then turn to less-canon games (Dissidia, a Final Fantasy free for all game). As a result I probably would have put in the extra effort in innovation to replace the neutral special and side special with something innovative from the original games, but I suppose it's alright if you prefer Dissidia over innovation from original games. But at least you came up with the idea for Ruse, Saber, and the others which is good.

I generally try to avoid Dissidia. As a result I would ask you to think of something better for the Neutral Special and Side Special from the original games through the use of moveset innovation and excercise of the four moveset element. But if you wish to add moves from Dissidia, then you can leave the neutral and side speical alone then.

But yeah, my apologies if my last post offended you, it merely just served as a suggestion.



@MercuryHg34-  Please understand that not all of Sakurai's movesets are horrible (for example Toon Link, Falco, Luigi, etc) but some of them were cleverly created. You cannot just dismiss Sakurai or Smash as terrible moveset creators just because of a few clones because there were others that were brilliantly created, like Mr. Game and Watch someone said.




@HypeConduit- Because Marth relates more to Warrior of Light in this situation rather than Mr. Game and Watch, which should be used to make NES characters or else those with an extremely limited attacks set. But I see your point, Mr. Game and Watch does have more creativity and I recogonized him to the point where he has a new moveset element on his own (I call it the Game and Watch method at least). And I will argue that Marth is one of the most well made characters in the Smash series, I don't think a lot of people would have came up with the awesome specials that he has now.

The reason I suggested innovated moveset was to find moves that would replace Dissidia moves (I always proritize moves from the original game over third party / less canon which was a Final Fantasy free for all). I kind of assumed that he did not have much ideas left to put from the original games so I was trying to encourage him to think harder and dig deeper to the original game to replace the Dissidia moves. That is how I would have handled things but if he puts Dissida at higher prority, then that's fine.


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Perfect Hell

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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:11 am

It wouldn't be hard to put say Ruse on a special, and maybe something else, but i much prefer the Dissidia attacks.  And anyway all you're talking about then is swapping moves around, the FF1 moves already exist in the moveset you're just talking about swapping the specials with the throws or other attacks.

EDIT

Looking it over again, I see I actually WAS fair to FF1. You say i overused Dissidia especially in specials, and yet the two games were given equal treatment, 2 specials used from each game. How deeply did you really look into this moveset before you tried to criticize it?

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ShadowHunter
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:23 am

I never said you were overusing Dissidia, I was basically saying you should try to avoid using Dissida moves as much as possible for something like the speicals and favor it for moves from the original games, which you can use by pondering more about the original games. The reason I gave you the suggestion to innovate was because I thought you couldn't come up with the moves to replace them, but now it seems that you are perfectly fine with the Dissida moves in the specials.

And I was not criticizing the moveset. I was suggesting that you should innovate a bit more to find a way to replace the specials with that from the original game (which would be my method in doing things). I will admit though, the Bravery stats seem to have a lot of thought gone into it.
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:32 am

Well back when this was first made, it was decided that WoL would equally represent both games. He is the protagonist of Dissidia and therefore FF as a whole, which is a very important role for him. At most, I would replace only one of the Dissidia specials if it were decided that FF1 were more important, but as for the current moveset the equality between games in the specials was crafted on purpose, not out of laziness. I easily could have made 4 specials from either game if i chose to.

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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 am

Ah, that is perfectly understandable. I am guessing that the main reason for all of this argument was miscommunication in game prorities. But yeah, if that's the goal then you did pretty well on it.
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:45 pm

I have nothing to say on moveset making, but Marth is an interesting case. All four of his moves are canon, and not just canon to the random crap Awakening DLC piled onto previous characters; canon to the Marth of the time from FE1 and FE3. The move names were obviously made up, but Sakurai used FE animations and only FE animations for them. As far as creativity goes, I think it's the best he could have done, while also making sure Marth remains Marth.
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PostSubject: Re: SSB Moveset Theory I Course (tutorial on making movesets)   Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:20 pm

Yes, that is one of the beauty of Smash movesets. Through all the clones and "Sakurai'ed" moves that people make fun of, there are just as many amazing movesets that were well-planned out and are thriving with originality and creativity that stays true to the character. Not everyone really appriciates that, let alone recoginize that and in a way, I wanted to change that.

And that's why I created this topic. After learning the deep origins of each of the Smash character's movesets and recoginzing Smash's moveset making style, I wanted to share that with all of you so that you can bring the amazing and creative traits that helped create Marth, Mr. Game and Watch, Fox, Kirby, Link, Ice Climbers, and practically everyone else. I made this to revolutionize the way people created movesets and minimize the amount of "writer's / thinker's block" for moveset creators and give them a set of techniques they can do to get themselves out of those kind of situations.
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