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 Roy's Character Change Ideas

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Roy
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PostSubject: Roy's Character Change Ideas   Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:47 am

While looking over the roster, I've noticed a lot of characters play similarly to each other. It would be nice if each character had its own playstyle, rather than just another variation of what we already have with tweaked moves. I'm not going to make a full list of changes for every move, I just want to get a feel for playstyles and make each character truly unique.

Note: I'm not going to look at the native Smash characters - they're usually fine as is, and players might be upset if we change their movesets (sans Ganondorf).

- Ristar
Right now, he has a bit more range than other melee fighters but not much else. I've suggested this before, but I'd like to see a 'Shooting Star' mechanic. Essentially, Ristar would start off weaker, but would get faster and stronger with each consecutive hit. If he misses with an attack, he resets back to his original stats. This is a true rushdown type of mechanic, though it shifts emphasis away from his strength. This should also affect his side special even more, allowing him to have a perfect move to finish the job.

- Little Mac
We all know what needs to be done here. The star mechanic should be more focused on his playstyle, though. In Punch-Out!!, he got a star if he managed to 'beat the opponent to the punch', or perform an effecitve counter. Little Mac should stand out from other melee combo characters in that he gets stronger as he avoids hits rather than rushing in. He should also be able to get more hitstun if he dodges an attack right before he attacks. Play it safe, and Little Mac will have no trouble beating the competition. For a visual and audio effect, it would be cool to have Doc in the background, giving advice whenever either he or an opponent is KO'd.

- Waluigi
Waluigi doesn't stand out very much. He doesn't have much going for him at the moment. I feel like his personality is more of a Joker-ish one, and his moveset should reflect that. Tricks all around, but not hesitant to smash your face in when you get close. Some tricky examples could involve a wall of vines left behind him when he uses his up special, a customizable timer on his bombs (controlled via directional input, perhaps?), the option to smash opponents with his racket instead of hitting a ball, the ability to cancel most moves into his down special... I feel like there's more that can be done, though.

- Tingle
Tingle's current playstyle seems to be 'spam rupees and bombs'. He should be more about stage control - he is a map maker, after all. One idea for this could be the Tingle Tuner - he could mark the ground (say with down special) with something similar to when using the Tingle Tuner in Wind Waker. Then from anywhere on the stage he can drop a bomb on that mark. Maybe he could also construct a small Tingle Tower on the stage to give him space. But this style should also be reflected in his normal attacks, which should mostly just be there to keep enemies away from him.

- Ashley
Her current way to play is to be combo-centric, but this involves kicking and hitting opponents with her staff. That doesn't sound like a small girl witch, does it? What I suggest is making her focus on a mid-range combo character. For example, one attack could be a spell that explodes a set distance away from her. This is worthless when enemies are too close to her or too far away. She has to keep enemies in that perfect sweetspot. This can be done through manipulating the area around the enemy as well as changing their properties (PANTALONES GIGANTICUS!). She also has a few tricks if they get too close (such as the mask).

- Rayman
Lately, Rayman's games have been more about momentum - keep running and you can make it through the level. While there have been some slow levels as well, this is the kind of playstyle I have in mind. His standard attacks can keep him moving and don't cause him to lose speed, allowing him to be all over the place. His special moves need tweaking - the grab and power punch aren't very useful. I haven't played Rayman 2 or 3, so I can't give too much help there on how to modify them...

- Mach Rider
Mach Rider is treated as a Captain Falcon clone, which is fine. He's differentiated by his ranged option and his bike. I don't know how else to change him... maybe allow these extra tools to give him a slight boost when used. For example, he could get a slight speed boost whenever he lands his shots, so he can pursue rather than spam. Also, his bike... leave his bike around with its current momentum when he jumps off of it. This allows him to combo his bike into any aerial move. Think about the anime Falcon Punch - leaping out of the Blue Falcon into it. That is what Mach Rider needs.

- Saki
Saki should be able to meld his gun and his sword into one combo. His gun allows him to either start combos from far away, or continue them if the opponent gets out of range of his sword. Unlike others of this sort (Fox, Falco), Saki should be able to rush in after a successful hit and combo from there. Perhaps he could be able to cancel his dash (side special) into other moves as well, helping him to chase down fleeing opponents.

- Porky
Porky is literally a walking tank. Heavy, unique projectiles, heavy smashes... the problem is that he doesn't have enough defenses. Give most of his attacks super armor - That way, he can ram right through most offenses, forcing his opponent to adopt a new strategy to take down the titan.

- Duck Hunt Dog
As of now, DHD is another projectile spammer. Throw out light gun shots, throw disks.... while I get the references, we should incorporate the ducks more. Rather than simply using them for attacks and then they fly off, what if ducks stayed around after being used? Then he could use his gun and disks to knock down fliyng birds to rain down on his opponent and re-use as weapons. That truly turns him into a duck hut dog.

- Crash
Crash is an odd one. He seems like he can do everything, so we should treat him like another Mario (that's what he was originally designed to be, right?). Decent at everything with no real strengths or weaknesses, but slightly different than Mario. He has a little of everything - stage control with his boxes, vertical and horizontal recovery, combos both on the ground and in the air... I suppose he doesn't really need any huge changes. I'd suggest making his boxes less spammy (more time taking them out, perhaps able to walk around while holding it out, option to drop instead of throw) so it feels more like he's changing the field rather than throwing out bombs. If he needs a projectile, give him the bazooka. If you want to make him more unique, try incorporating Aku Aku. Maybe he could work like Luma in SSB4, but not attacking, simply being in the way and taking hits.

- Ridley
Ridley should be treated like his home games - he's best in the air and when his opponents are on the ground. Give his forward, back, and neutral aerials some range below him to combo grounded opponents, allow his pogo to repeatedly bounce. If he's on the ground, he could have a nice new up throw that involves him flying up and throwing the opponent down, leaving him in the air. Fireballs shouldn't be as lame as they currently are - I imagine a lob of a few fireballs (think Zero Mission Ridley fight) that rain hell down upon the opposition. He's no slouch in air-to-air combat either, but he specializes in anti-ground.

- Toad
Toad is known for being fast (As seen in SMB2 and 3D World), as well as high acceleration (Mario Kart). However, he has the lowest jumps and top speed, respectively. How that translates into a Smash setting, imo, is a hit-and-run type of character. He has turnips to pelt from afar, mushrooms to charge in and out when needed, some small combos once he's in... Lower his damage output but increase his speed, and make his mushroom boost increase his speed dramatically (So he can keep running right after, maybe sort of a charging dash rather than a headbutt). He won't be as combo-heavy as Fox or Falcon, but he can keep up with the rest of the cast and escape dangerous situations with ease. Maybe give his neutral special properties so he can pop it even in hitstun, but needs charging, so he has one last resort option to escape a deadly combo.

- Krystal
She'll keep in line with the other Star Fox characters, but with her own unique take on it with her increased range thanks to her staff and assault weapons. Speaking of which, she should actually use the staff more, especially in her specials; instead of a standard blaster shot, give her a fireball. Move the demon sniper to side special (since it's a popular move), and give her an earth-shattering down special (meaning earthquake from SFA). In exchange for giving up reflecting, she gets a much more powerful 'shine' that is easy to combo into anything. Up special can be rocket stafff, just a change in aesthetics. She doesn't need a lot of projectiles, the extra range and power of her weapons is plenty to make her stand out from Fox and pals.

- Geno
Assuming Geno still has his action commands, I think he's actually fine where he is right now. That property alone allows him to use moves both as combo tools and finishers; the only change I'd make is to add more action commands! Give him plenty of options.

- Bomberman
Bomberman, classically, is a strategy game. Tactically placing bombs, controlling the field. Of course, we don't want to simply copy SSF2's Bomberman. Instead of giving him a remote, I say we give him timed bombs that explode after a certain time. An opponent can dance around them, waiting for them to go off, but it also gives Bomberman some degree of control. However, we can also give him multiple types of bombs - neutral special can be standard bombs as they are now, maybe slightly modified to more match classic bombs (with 90 degree explosion directions). Make him able to set bombs with it as well. Ice bombs should not explode until the time is up, allowing him to set traps. Down special can be changed into yet another type of trap to set, perhaps fire bombs that erupt in a vertical column. Normal moves can be standard fare, but perhaps include some interesting references to his more modern games in there. Bomberman doesn't have standard projectile fare, but his dominant stage control more than makes up for it. Comparing to Tingle, Tingle wants to keep you away while Bomberman wants you to keep close.

- Gooey
What is Gooey, anyways? He was player 2 in Kirby's Dream Land 3, playing similar to Kirby but having slight differences. Being made of dark matter, perhaps Gooey should play as a stronger version of Kirby but with a weaker recovery to compensate. I don't see much of a problem with him at the moment, though... maybe make him a bit stronger, he seems a bit weak at the moment.


Last edited by Roy on Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:07 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Dry



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PostSubject: Re: Roy's Character Change Ideas   Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:07 am

- Ristar
It's a good idea, but it's too similar to our new Mac (more on that soon). But a "bit more range" is a massive understatement. He is extremely difficult to approach. With the 0.9 changes, part of his huge range comes from his rather fast grab, which means he is much more effective against shields than most others. He's a grabby kinda guy, so having grab, zair and neutral B all important parts of his moveset is close to canon.

- Little Mac
Mac's been fixed. He has the best combo potential, and after some recent balancing, the only character who has guaranteed 0-deaths on every other character in the game. Each combo hit also makes his specials more powerful (as well as making his neutral B gain more height). This is offset, among other things, by his extreme learning curve; you have to memorise his combos to even stand a chance, and past that you have to be good at following DI, and to really guarantee those deaths you need to know the exact point in the combo at which you can combo neutral B into itself perfectly, and finish up with an insanely powerful up B. In a way, it's very similar to Punch-Out!!.

- Waluigi
We haven't made Waluigi particularly tricky, but with Giga's help he's certainly more of a unique character. He's slow and has pretty much no combos, but his tricks include a long ranged vine-based grab and zair, the ability to glide (by swimming through the air, of course), and his Up B now has some tornado-like spinning.

- Tingle
No idea about Tingle. PH may have balanced him more, I'm not aware that he has though.

- Ashley
I like your idea about Ashley, but Det had best hear about it too, because he created Ashley's playstyle and loves it as it is.

- Rayman
Haha, I don't actually like the momentum-based games. Raymans 1, 2 and 3, now they were brilliant, and Rayman 2 has imo the best gameplay in an action video game, ever. Seriously, it's ridiculously precise and tight on the controls, and you yourself have the accuracy of a 2D platformer despite it being in 3D, and I don't even know how they managed to do that last part. Anyway, Rayman is a pretty normal character with good range and combo ability but bad power and survivability. Imo he's not someone who needs to be changed much at all.

- Saki
PH has done a lot on Saki, so I have no idea what he's like now. From the sounds of it he's very similar to Fox.

EDIT: Wait, Crash? What demo do you have?
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PostSubject: Re: Roy's Character Change Ideas   Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:36 am

Dry wrote:
EDIT: Wait, Crash? What demo do you have?

He's just talking about what he's seen from the apex stream.

These are all pretty good ideas, Roy.

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Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Roy's Character Change Ideas   Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:36 pm

Dry wrote:
- Ristar
It's a good idea, but it's too similar to our new Mac (more on that soon). But a "bit more range" is a massive understatement. He is extremely difficult to approach. With the 0.9 changes, part of his huge range comes from his rather fast grab, which means he is much more effective against shields than most others. He's a grabby kinda guy, so having grab, zair and neutral B all important parts of his moveset is close to canon.

- Little Mac
Mac's been fixed. He has the best combo potential, and after some recent balancing, the only character who has guaranteed 0-deaths on every other character in the game. Each combo hit also makes his specials more powerful (as well as making his neutral B gain more height). This is offset, among other things, by his extreme learning curve; you have to memorise his combos to even stand a chance, and past that you have to be good at following DI, and to really guarantee those deaths you need to know the exact point in the combo at which you can combo neutral B into itself perfectly, and finish up with an insanely powerful up B. In a way, it's very similar to Punch-Out!!.

- Waluigi
We haven't made Waluigi particularly tricky, but with Giga's help he's certainly more of a unique character. He's slow and has pretty much no combos, but his tricks include a long ranged vine-based grab and zair, the ability to glide (by swimming through the air, of course), and his Up B now has some tornado-like spinning.

- Tingle
No idea about Tingle. PH may have balanced him more, I'm not aware that he has though.

- Ashley
I like your idea about Ashley, but Det had best hear about it too, because he created Ashley's playstyle and loves it as it is.

- Rayman
Haha, I don't actually like the momentum-based games. Raymans 1, 2 and 3, now they were brilliant, and Rayman 2 has imo the best gameplay in an action video game, ever. Seriously, it's ridiculously precise and tight on the controls, and you yourself have the accuracy of a 2D platformer despite it being in 3D, and I don't even know how they managed to do that last part. Anyway, Rayman is a pretty normal character with good range and combo ability but bad power and survivability. Imo he's not someone who needs to be changed much at all.

- Saki
PH has done a lot on Saki, so I have no idea what he's like now. From the sounds of it he's very similar to Fox.

EDIT: Wait, Crash? What demo do you have?
Ristar - Being grabby is fine, I just want to keep him separate from Klonoa. I suppose having 2 grapple characters is fine if they're different enough.

Little Mac - That sounds pretty good too, though I don't know if 0-deaths are that great of an idea. That means that a perfect Little Mac wins every matchup and there's no way to balance him.

Waluigi - I guess that's unique, but I'm not sure it's enough. Sure he's slow and no combos, but a power-type doesn't scream out 'Waluigi' to me.

Rayman - I could never get into Rayman 2... I got it, but it was really boring to me. It would be nice if he was more than a normal character... I heard something about being able to charge up his grab. That sounds neat... what if he could aim any chargable moves? Able to grab foes above him, shoot his neutral special skyward, smash behind him instead of forward... it separates him from the rest of the cast a bit.

Saki - That's precisely what I wanted to avoid... try to separate Saki from Fox a bit. They feel very similar at the moment.

Crash - Just from the stream as Dust mentioned.
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PostSubject: Re: Roy's Character Change Ideas   Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:45 pm

Waluigi needs range in most of his attacks.
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Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Roy's Character Change Ideas   Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:08 pm

Added a few more. I really don't know what to say about Gooey... he seems fine. :s
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PostSubject: Re: Roy's Character Change Ideas   Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:59 pm

Hey I might have an idea for Bomber man.
If we change down special instead of dropping bombs to changing bombs. Then for neutral special, when Bomber man is holding the bomb, he can press down, up, left, right to throw it in the direction. Side special makes Bomber man throw the bomb in an arc. If neutral button is not hold, he'll naturally kick the bomb in what ever direction he's facing.
I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but the image of Bomber man kicking fire bombs around that explode into a vertical column sounds amazing.
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Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Roy's Character Change Ideas   Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:27 pm

I thought about that for Bomberman, but I'm not sure if we should use a 'weapon swap' down special...
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Perfect Hell



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PostSubject: Re: Roy's Character Change Ideas   Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:06 pm

Any changes you suggested involving changing the moveset are likely never going to happen unless we resprite them. It's still possible we'll change movesets around a bit, but it wont be common that's for sure.

Saki;
So basically instead of being Marth-Fox, you want Marth-Fox-Falco. Kinda cool i guess but would take a serious overhaul and honestly i dont like it enough to be worth the effort. Dash attack already functions as a combo move now, so he's pretty rushdown and agressive.

Little Mac;
Cool idea but i'm fine with the current one as Dry suggested. 0-deaths are fine when they are reliant on both the tech skill of the player and the DI of the opponent. Balance is not based on a perfect player, those do not exist. It is based on high level play, which will include tech skill faults and incredible DI mixups.

Ristar;
Perfect as is. Try him again in the next demo.

Waluigi;
Good ideas, may look into some of these.

Tingle;
Projectiles are planned to be nerfed, and though your new move ideas are nice, I highly doubt they are getting sprited. The playstyle type itself is already what he is anyway though, so i see no issue.
Tingle also is a lot about randomness, unpredictability. That's already present in his rupees types, maybe a similar treatment will be applied to his other specials, giving side B randomized trajectory and distance similar to G&W but on a massively increased randomization scale. Down B can just be made more generally useable, it's already a randomizer.

Ashley;
Great ideas, may be looked in to.

Rayman;
I agree with Dry mostly, though angled neutral air and being able to control the direction or placement of his attacks would be cool. Side B and Down B have already been tweaked.

Porky;
So, Bowser v2? No thanks. I like Porky as a spacing control character with high weight and power.

DHD;
Projectiles have already been nerfed, but if you think DHD is simply a spammer, you're playing the character wrong. DHD is one of Crusade's combo kings. I do like your idea of ducks in flight and being able to shoot them though.

Crash;
Keep in mind this character has simply been coded, no balance work has been done yet. Side B ideas are good, Aku already follows him around but i do like the gimmick of him being able to absorb attacks, that way if you use momentum just right you can get Aku to tank an attack for you when you need it. Down B is his Bazooka already.

Ridley;
is a spacing and edgeguarding master. Some air to ground stuff may be look in to, though he already does have that in his glide fireballs and his Nair. Maybe we'll do some other stuff.

Toad;
Toad is a character who tries to find his way in and combo hard. I think he's perfect as is, and apparently so do quite a lot of our booth fans, commonly cited as a favorite playstyle character.

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Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Roy's Character Change Ideas   Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:44 pm

Perfect Hell wrote:
Any changes you suggested involving changing the moveset are likely never going to happen unless we resprite them.  It's still possible we'll change movesets around a bit, but it wont be common that's for sure.
I've heard from the spriting team that they're going to resprite almost every character in the game after 0.9, so there's definitely a possibility.

Maybe I should have waited until the new demo releases to see changes, but I'm ok with everything said so far. Like I didn't know Crash had the bazooka already. So I'm fine with leaving a lot of them alone, I'm just putting some ideas out there. Take what's good and leave out what's bad.
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