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 Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)

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Would you like to see the Scout over the Heavy, knowing Rule Six?
Yes, I'd love to have the Scout as DLC over the Heavy!
19%
 19% [ 5 ]
I'd rather see both, but would prefer to see the Scout over the Heavy.
11%
 11% [ 3 ]
I'd rather see both, but would prefer to see the Heavy over the Scout
22%
 22% [ 6 ]
No, I do not want to see the Scout in Crusade at all!
48%
 48% [ 13 ]
Total Votes : 27
 

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NordicOmega
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PostSubject: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:54 pm


So, I was reading the DLC thread when I saw that the Heavy was one of the available choices for the poll, and in fact has a secure place inside the poll listing. As a big TF2 fan, I was quite happy with this, but it then I thought that there was one character who I thought was more deserving than Heavy to take the place of Heavy, and in my opinion, work as a character better than the Russian machinegunner: The Scout.

Why Scout over Heavy? Two major reasons why

Reason 1: Scout is arguably the most recognizable character of the series

In Team Fortress 2, there really isn't a "main" character, owning to it being a multiplayer-only game. Most of Team Fortress 2's lore is not actually in the game itself, but in various other media released by Valve, particularly the "Meet the Team" videos and various webcomics that are periodically released. Each mercenary has a Meet the Team video, which develops each character by showing their interaction with the camera and other characters. The webcomics focus on more than just the main nine characters, showing people and events that simply do not appear in the game at all. Out of the nine characters in the game itself (and this is an estimate, not a true ranking), probably the Soldier of all characters appears the most out of them, owing to his insanity being a great device for humor. Otherwise, the Scout appears the most often in the comics besides him. This shows that he is highly relevant to the series's plot, and makes him very recognizable. Heavy appears about the fourthmost, after the two previously mentioned characters and the Engineer, who has the most plot relevance of all nine mercenaries (Just read Loose Cannon).

This is important, because the relevancy of the nine main characters are determined mostly by the fans themselves. This is best measured through the spread of TF2-related memes on the internet. Many of the memes involving TF2 revolve around the Scout in some way, with Derp Scout, Rainbows Make me Cry, and Need a Dispenser being three that come to mind. The most important one he's in, and arguably the most famous TF2 meme of them all, is Bonk. First seen in the Meet the Scout video, he yells this phrase twice as he whacks the Heavy into submission with his Bat. This phrase has become highly exploitable, and soon hundreds of remixes of songs flooded Youtube, using the phrase and other TF2 sounds in place of instruments (A Bonk remix of Snake Man's theme is how I first discovered the series, in fact). The phrase had become so popular, that it referenced in the game itself numerous times by weapons (such as Bonk! Atomic Punch) and cosmetic items (Including an entire item set known as Bonk-Boy). This is mainly why I believe Scout is much more recognizable than the Heavy. He appears in more official media than any other class but Soldier, and has the biggest unofficial presence than any class period. Heavy is certainly up with the Scout, but the Scout wins.

Reason 2: The Scout would work as a better character than The Heavy

I'm going to be blunt about it; the Scout was practically designed to be a Smash character. He is the only character in TF2 that can double jump,  is the fastest character in TF2 when Smash's metagame is designed around speed, he's designed to fight close and melee range, and his combination of scattergun, pistol, and baseball bat would translate extremely well as a varied moveset. Heavy, meanwhile, is a slow, clunky character who fights at mid-long range, generally only uses his minigun unless he is in trouble, and generally wouldn't translate well in a speed-based fighting game. This is not to say I don't believe Heavy couldn't work, merely that Scout would work better. To help illustrate this, I have a general moveset idea for Scout:

Jabs, tilts, and Smashes: Would generally involve Scout whacking his foe with his baseball bat. The speed, angle, and damage would depend on what exact move you're doing. His jab would be quick, rapid strikes that do little damage. An up tilt would have him strike above him, a down smash might make him do something similar to how you bat in cricket, etc, etc. I don't feel like describing every minute way he'd hit someone with a bat, so there.

Dash: Owing to his baseball-inspired design, his dash would not be a bat attack, but in fact be the Scout performing a slide, extending his feet and keeping his body mass down. This would be a sex kick of sorts, as the hitbox would remain for a few seconds as he slides forward. This would be a great move to move in with, since it will allow you to dodge projectiles and still move forward.

Grab: Scout reaches for his foe with his offhand (Persumably left hand, but I don't think we'd make separate sprites for each direction he's facing) and grabs their torso. If he connects, he automatically replaces his bat with his pistol

Pummel: Pistol whip to the face

Throw: Much like Fox and Falco's throws, he would throw his foe to the direction inputted, and then shoot them 2-3 times.

Air: Unlike his ground attacks, his air attacks will be more varied. His up and down airs will both involve him pulling out his scattergun and firing a blast upwards or downwards, respectively. Yes, that means his up and down airs are ranged, much like how Mega Man's "jabs" will be in SSB4. His Nair will be a downwards aiming punch with his offhand, and will be a meteor smash. His Fair will be him "stabbing" with his bat, and Bair will be Scout hitting behind him with the handle of his bat

Special: Scattergun. Scout pulls out his scattergun and blasts right in front of him. This attack will deal major damage up close, and it can be fired multiple times much like Falco's blaster, meaning it will be a great way to rack damage up when you're close. However, it will not have the amazing range of the blasters, going half the distance of final destination at best, and do less damage the farther away the target is from Scout. There could even be some ending lag as Scout must pump the empty shells out of the gun. The scattergun would be the primary finishing attack of the Scout, with a solid hit at KO percentages will be enough to cause a KO. However, the ending lag makes Scout very vulnerable and counterable if he misses.

Side Special: Pistol. Scout whips out his pistol and fires either a 3 round burst (tap special) or up to 12 bullets (hold special). Pistol rounds would deal very low damage, like Fox's blaster, but will actually stun unlike the blaster. It also will not be completly accurate, with bullets possibly being fired at an angle. The longer you've been firing, the more inaccurate it gets. This will be a great zoning attack, punishing foes who attempt to stay away from Scout with continuous damage, forcing them to approach. This is actually how the pistol is used by the Scout in Team Fortress 2, except that the Scout usually is the one that closes.

Down Special: Sandman. Scout throws a ball in the air and quickly hits it forward with his bat. Does little actual damage, but will do high shield damage, enough that it should break or be close to breaking. Also, it will do slightly more damage the further the foe is from the Scout, and even cause the foe to be stunned. This attack will be used to set up an opportunity for Scout to move in into a target with impunity, allowing him to set up a combo or blast them with his Scattergun.

Up Special: Force-A-Nature. Scout pulls out his Force-A-Nature, and, depending if he's in the air or not, will do something different. In Air, he'll fire it twice downwards in quick succession, spawning pellets below him and propelling him upwards. If you press a direction as he pulls out the gun, the Scout will point it at the opposite direction, propelling him in the direction you pressed for. On the ground, he will point it at the direction you were facing and fire twice, also spawning the pellets but not pushing the Scout in any direction. The pellets spawned will arc in many directions, and cause little damage individually but abnormally large knockback. On the air, it's a respectable recovery that gives Scout cover in the opposite direction he is going. On ground, it's a good way to knock foes back when you're not prepared to deal with them.

Final Smash: Atomic Cola: Scout pulls out both a can of Bonk! Atomic Punch and Crit-a-Cola, chugging them down at the same time. For an unspecified amount of time (In Team Fortress 2, each lasts eight seconds, but that seems a little short for a Final Smash), the Scout will be completely invincible, "dodging" every form of attack that goes his way and therefore not take damage. His attacks also cause "mini-crits", or causes them to be stronger (In TF2: 35% stronger) and also have increased knockback. Otherwise, Scout plays the same while it is running. This final smash doesn't provide much immediate bonuses in the forum of a major attack, and isn't guaranteed to cause a kill. However, the true invincibility is very useful, and he still can KO easier than normal.

Taunt:

---

Honestly, I'd love to see both, but as per Rule 6, TF2 can not have a second rep, and I think Scout would simply fit better than Heavy. If anyone has comments, questions, or concerns, please do ask. Otherwise, I await your votes.


Last edited by NordicOmega on Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:10 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Smash King
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:05 pm

I definitely like this presentation on the suggestion. Though we have a thread "Candidate Cut Poll" for these types of discussions. We can consider this replacement if it gets support. This thread can be used as part of the argument if we have the poll.
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NordicOmega
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:10 pm

Thanks! I worked very hard on the presentation of this thread; appearances do matter after all in stuff like these. I saw how no one wanted Marina after the person who suggested her put no effort in presenting her, which is sad because she would had made a great character, but I disgress.

As for the cut thread, I'm sorry that I failed to notice that thread, and next time I have a suggestion like this, I'll post it there. My apologizes.
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:29 pm

its fine, it happens. But yea, the least I can do is have it presented on the Candidate Cut Poll once the Shake King VS new Wario rep Poll ends. As long as you stick around here, I wouldn't mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:31 pm

That would be very appreciated, thank you.
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AEM

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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:46 pm

I object.
Now this might mostly be because I suggested the Heavy originally, but the Heavy is more much more prominent in general. You're using fan-created memes as support, which in reality, don't really mean much in a realistic standpoint when picking characters from big franchises. Sure, it adds to popularity of the character, but the Heavy has many character-specific memes as well. He's even more prominent outside of TF2.

It is also undeniable that the Heavy is generally considered to be the main character of the franchise.

Who had the first Meet the Team video?
 - The Heavy.
Who has been in every Meet the Team video?
 - The Heavy.
Who is on the boxart?
 - Engineer, Pyro, Sniper, and Heavy (Who is taking up the majority of the space).
Who is always in the center of group photos?
 - The Heavy.
Who always represents TF2 in crossovers?
 - The Heavy.

Now sure, I think Scout could certainly suffice as a secondary character for sure and I would personally love to see both classes in the battlefield.
But honestly, the Heavy represents Team Fortress 2 much better than the Scout, which should come into consideration first.
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:55 pm

^this
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:19 pm

The Scout is also in every Meet the Team video, so that's not a good point. Also, in the official group shot, both the Heavy and the Scout share the center. And in the one crossover TF2 was in, it was the Pyro, Spy, and Heavy sharing equal screentime (In fact, Pyro probably was more prominent than the Heavy by the nature of the game). And finally, the Scout is on the back of the case, having the most prominent position there.

So basically, the only arguments that still stands is that Scout is on the back rather than the front, Heavy's Meet the Team was the first one, and that Scout hasn't appeared in a crossover yet. Not to mention this none of this includes that Scout translates into a Smash game better than the Heavy would.
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:46 pm

Difficulty to include a character or lack of moveset material are not valid arguments either. Anyone can fit in any fighting game without exception, I dare anyone to name someone who can't.
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:50 pm

NordicOmega wrote:
The Scout is also in every Meet the Team video, so that's not a good point. Also, in the official group shot, both the Heavy and the Scout share the center. And in the one crossover TF2 was in, it was the Pyro, Spy, and Heavy sharing equal screentime (In fact, Pyro probably was more prominent than the Heavy by the nature of the game). And finally, the Scout is on the back of the case, having the most prominent position there.

So basically, the only arguments that still stands is that Scout is on the back rather than the front, Heavy's Meet the Team was the first one, and that Scout hasn't appeared in a crossover yet. Not to mention this none of this includes that Scout translates into a Smash game better than the Heavy would.
Several things.
 - Fair enough. But the Heavy is still generally in more promotional content.
 - The Heavy is still more in the center (I REALLY hope this doesn't turn into a positioning argument involving pixels)
 - Heavy is still on the cover and is the largest character on the cover. Scout is still the same size as the other classes.
 - Heavy also appeared in the Poker Night franchise too. Which is yet again another crossover involving TF2 that lacks the Scout.
 - The Scout translating to Smash better than the Heavy doesn't mean anything though. We almost got the Excitebiker on his bike in Melee, we just didn't because Masahiro Sakurai couldn't think of a way for him to realistically jump. But you can create a moveset for anyone, so moveset potential isn't a reason to give a character reasoning over another.
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:17 pm

for some reason the Heavy reminds me of a bald Wreck-It Ralph with guns.

I'd much rather have Ralph (and Vanellope!) than Heavy, as well. so i'll vote for the scout
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:22 pm

Axel meets Vanellope wrote:
for some reason the Heavy reminds me of a bald Wreck-It Ralph with guns.

I'd much rather have Ralph (and Vanellope!) than Heavy, as well. so i'll vote for the scout
Even though TF2 has existed for a lot longer than Wreck-It Ralph.

:\
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:32 pm

Sonic and All-Stars Racing Transformed: Heavy was one of the classes used for the "Team Fortress" racer. Scout wasn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:31 am

Nicko is that you
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:35 am

I would say The Heavy is more popular than Scout and um he uses guns and Ralph uses HIS FISTS
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:41 am

Axel meets Vanellope wrote:
for some reason the Heavy reminds me of a bald Wreck-It Ralph with guns.
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:57 am

axel is wreck it ralph the only thing you know besides kingdom hearts
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:58 am

shut up.
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:45 pm

Vanellope von Schweetz wrote:
shut up.

You couldn't even bother to answer his question?
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:53 pm

~ Subtendo wrote:
Vanellope von Schweetz wrote:
shut up.

You couldn't even bother to answer his question?

ignore the people with no intelligence
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:59 pm

Vanellope von Schweetz wrote:
shut up.
I'm sorry I offended you
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:01 pm

I support the idea, but personally as a huge TF2 fan, I feel like having the Heavy would be better and represents TF2 more, everyone loves heavy! I'd like to see both, but Heavy is more important to myself.
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:30 pm

I will leave this poll open for 1 more day. If it still remains active, I can give it more time. If not, it will be locked with whatever the results are.
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PostSubject: Re: Replace Heavy with the Scout (TF2)   Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:20 pm

It looks like there are no more active discussions going on here, therefore, locked.
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